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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Pretty desperate (v.v.v.long)

205 replies

JustDontWantToSay · 24/06/2014 00:06

It's taken me weeks and weeks to pluck up the courage to post here. I am doing this out of utter desperation. I've hesitated because my DP would be so furious if he found out - the fury I could cope with but he would mock me too, i.e. "oh you think you're hard done by after what you've done," etc., etc. and I find that the most cutting thing of all.

Sorry - I think this may be quite a long post.

Basically I'm not sure whether I'm in an abusive relationship or not. Or whether I'm the problem. Please, please be honest if you reply - I need to know whether I'm going mad or not.

We've been together 2 years. I don't really want to describe the incidents to date because it will out me, but I don't see an alternative if I want valid opinions. I'm a strong character, he's a strong character. We had a complicated start but we knew that we wanted to be together and we worked hard to do that. It was very stressful for lots of different reasons, we really didn't have the best start.

Around 3m into the relationship he lost his temper after a party one night, threw me against a wall and onto a bed, gripped me so hard I bruised and threw me out of the front door of a hotel room into the snow wearing nothing but my knickers. I was only out there for a few seconds though and then he opened the door again. We were both drunk and tension was high. He was mortified the next morning and swore that he'd never do it again. A few weeks later we had an argument in a hotel and he smashed a wineglass in his hand. I left.

Over the next few months we had dramatic highs and lows. The highs were the best days of my life and the lows were the worst. We had a couple of big arguments where he got slightly violent (smashing things, pushing me up against a fireplace and he held a glass against my neck threatening to smash it into me - though this is something he completely denies. Maybe I imagined it. I'm not sure. It was a vivid memory at the time.) In his defence I have to say that I would have been antagonising him by arguing with him. At that point I wasn't one to shy away from a disagreement. His point throughout the relationship has been "you don't know when to stop". His jealousy was getting out of control too. He once marched me home from a bar, physically manhandling me. I didn't want to go elsewhere, but he made it clear that I was within his physical control. On another occasion we were in a restaurant and there must have been something going on; all I remember is him saying "I've seen you look at that table of blokes once, I've seen you look twice, now you do it a third time" - very threateningly. I just stared down at my hands as it was safest after that.

A short while later we split up. Before that, we had some vicious fights (always drink-related, Saturday night, emotions boiling over sort of thing) and I called the police twice, probably unnecessarily and he holds it against me to this day, calling me 'mad', 'attention seeking', etc.

Three times we had a 'last night' together because he was going to end it with me. After the split I was diagnosed with severe depression. Medication helped. We got back together and all was fine until Christmas. We had an argument one night and he locked me out of his house (I had no key, live two hours away) and I stayed in the pub and became aware that there was a table of three blokes next to me and they were talking about something that interested me. To my huge embarrassment now I was so drunk that I went over, joined their table and their conversation for a bit. I can honestly say that by this point I was absolutely desperate for non-judgmental company. Desperate. I would never have gone on to do anything else under any circumstances. Over Xmas I think what happened was that he got annoyed that I was having fun at my parents' without him (he had his own plans) and on Boxing Day I was late to see him (maybe an hour, maybe a bit less, because I was packing) and we had an enormous fight in a car park where he literally screamed at me for an hour or more in public about this pub incident that he had got to hear of. Again, I didn't help matters by trying to slap his face once with a bunch of keys in my hand. To this day he accuses me of punching him with a bunch of keys, and whilst they were in my hand I genuinely didn't intend them to touch him. It was a fraught situation and I made a mistake.

There have been a few incidents since then, too many to recall exactly, but one saw me going to the pub to use the wi-fi to submit some work and because he'd been out all afternoon (I was unreasonably annoyed) I decided to stay there. In retrospect I was crying out for attention and care. Again, I joined a table of people (male and female) and stayed there for a couple of drinks. Not having eaten and drunk far too much I ended up absolutely wasted, left my ipad behind the bar in lieu of paying because I couldn't find my card and stumbled back to his house. His view on the whole night had been "Well, fuck you, if you're out, I'm going out."
In the morning I told him where I'd been and he went ballistic. He threw me and my stuff out of his flat, I wasn't dressed and he made me get dressed in a communal stairwell. He literally threw my bags down the stairs. He said that I was completely disrespectful and selfish. We fought badly that day, but I had behaved appallingly by staying out and getting drunk. He thinks that a woman shouldn't be in a pub on her own.

On another occasion he got angry and threw my shoes out of the window into the road, meaning that I had to go out barefoot to the middle of a busy road and pick them up. The humiliation was horrible. A few weeks ago I drove to see him after a fight and found him in a bar, he was very drunk. He was absolutely horrible to me and threw me physically out his flat and took back the key he'd given me and I had to sleep in my car overnight. He apologised profusely the next day and was sincere in regretting it.

So now we get to this period of time and it's been a rollercoaster. In brief: he is extremely suspicious and jealous, he needs to know all my passwords, if I use my phone when he's not next to me he accuses me of being 'sneaky'. He regularly goes through my phone and computer, etc. and flies off the handle if he sees anything he doesn't like (old photos, etc.) If I use any form of social media he is instantly suspicious and disapproving. He says that I've caused it by lying to him. I do admit that I have lied - but it was only ever about stupid stuff (is that coat new? No, type thing) I know that doesn't justify it.

Over the last few weeks I have been diagnosed with anxiety and have new meds (they're working well). He has been making a big effort to drive to see me rather than the other way around and we've had some spectacular times. We were aiming to spend our lives together and whilst I was totally comfortable with that idea, he wasn't and the pressure was always on - if I put a foot wrong then I wouldn't be a suitable wife. He's always yelled insults at me, but recently he's got really nasty - he's called me a scumbag, a disgusting cunt, a fucking awful person, a complete fucking joke, basically run me into the ground. He says that he only says those things when I am behaving like a disgusting cunt or whatever (this isn't language I would normally use btw). He says that I don't know when to stop and that's why he gets so angry. This weekend I really wanted to go to a special, one-off event which we had planned to attend together, but it had been sold out but a last minute opportunity came up. I was all excited and began making plans to see if we could go and he got immediately cross at one of my ideas (he said that I was 'palming my child off on anyone who would have her' - I'd suggested her staying with someone as an IDEA, it wasn't fixed or a definite plan in any way and I wouldn't have done anything if it wasn't in her best interests.) He got aggressive, nasty, shouted some awful things and I walked out. He said he couldn't go to the event because he had nothing ti wear (specific dress needed) He was appalled at the thought I would go on my own for an hour or so - it was my last chance to see one friend before she moves abroad and a whole group of girls were going who I am friendly with. I really wanted to go,.He later admitted that he'd lied to me about not having clothes because I hadn't walked in immediately and asked him if he wanted to go. I assumed that his previous desire to attend still stood. I wasn't sure all day about going or not and eventually he said that he would rip up my dress to stop me going, and all of my other dresses, though he later said that he wouldn't actually have done it. So I missed the event. He blamed me hugely for 'fucking off and doing whatever I wanted' when I walked out because he was being so verbally abusive. He denies this, but every time I came back he went down the same path and I was trying to make a stand.

Last night was the final straw. Too boring to go into but basically his point was that I have no right to complain about anything he does because of what I've done (nothing not detailed here). He says that I am selfish on a level that he's never experienced before (hand on heart, I'm just a normal person), I'm rude on a daily basis (I'm not at ALL) and he cannot see any fault with himself in any way. He says that he has the right to throw me out of his home and call me names, though he admits it isn't nice. These are things that have been repeated hundreds of times, along with the names. He accuses me of being deliberately deceitful, manipulative, spiteful, that I have 'snidey eyes' and many other things. When I argue he shouts that I'll "say ANYTHING" to win a point (I don't) and he constantly accuses me of lying. He sneers at me, belittles me constantly and mocks me by repeating what I've said in a childish voice. This morning I began to tackle him very gently about his behaviour, knowing that I couldn't take any more, and he turned around and said that he felt he was in an abusive relationship, that I was an abusive person, that I lied and manipulated and controlled him, that I had damaged him completely, that I'd ripped him apart and left his self-esteem at rock bottom, that I was calculated and nasty and would stop at nothing to make sure that he was hurt. Nothing could be further from the truth but he just doesn't see it. He says that anger is the only emotion that I can't destroy so it's all he has to use. I promise that I am just a normal woman, going about my normal life and trying to be the best partner that I can to him. I don't do anything that he accuses me of but he just can't see it. He remains determined that I'm this awful person. He says that I 'suck the life out of him', that being with me is an awful thing. He has isolated me from friends and family but hating me going out with friends, disliking my friends, saying that it's disrespectful to see them. He doesn't believe that I haven't slept with some of them. I just cannot tell him anything. He makes his mind up and that's that. He judges me on things that I simply haven't done. He's called me a whore, a slut and many other things.

What he said this morning has floored me. Am I abusive?? How?? I try every which way to look after him - doing all his washing, cooking for him when I can, giving him drinks and vitamins, tidying his flat, doing little things that he likes and I curb my own tongue all the time so that we don't fight. Now I've reached the point where my self-esteem is so low that the only people who make me feel like a decent person are my daughters. I rely heavily on their smiles, hugs and pictures that they draw to make me feel ok. I am often frightened by him - I know he would physically overpower me if he wanted. I feel undervalued, worthless and not special in any way in the slightest. He says that this is exactly how he feels. The name-calling really upsets me for some reason. They're only words but they do upset me. My friends and family hate him because I've relayed some of his behaviour. He's cross about this and says that I painted him in a certain light and focussed on the bad bits rather than the good.

Flip side? I do love him, I understand he's damaged in some way and we do have some wonderful times. He's done a lot for me.

That's it I guess. Sorry it's so long. I'd be grateful for any feedback. Has anyone else been in this position? What should I do? I am totally isolated, no friends or family nearby. I have no-one to confide in.

PS. The alcohol usage is going to leap out at you. I'd just like to say that we don't drink heavily or every day and it isn't a problem. It just seems to have fuelled fights in the past - so we cut it out.

OP posts:
FatherJake · 25/06/2014 12:08

You haven't written the relationship off yet? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. What on earth is the point of all this posting then?

Your poor kids have a mum who inexplicably refuses to get out of an abusive and destructive relationship. Still, at least they have cookie time, eh?

YouMakeMeHappy · 25/06/2014 12:24

Really mellowautumn? Are you quite sure your last post wasn't nasty?

Either OP does as she is told by you, or you feel she deserves to be mocked and put down because "it's the truth"

You sound like a bully yourself. FGS she is an adult looking for advice, which she is free to follow or not. She won't be the first to stay in a less than perfect relationship while trying to make it work. That in no way means she is neglecting her children, what a horrible unkind, and untrue thing to say to her!

I glad you are still posting OP. I think your attitude has changed and you are going to protect yourself more. I can't say if this has potential to change back to a happy relationship, but I will support you in trying to do that, because you know much more than we do here.

It's definitely positive that you say you won't/can't put up with it any more. So he will have to change or lose you. It's much better than trying desperately to please him because that hasn't worked, and it's not fair on you.

The ball is in his court now. He still has the possibility of a relationship with you if he can go back to acting how he used to. I really hope that he does because you sound very invested in him. If you fell in love when he was being lovely to you, it can take a long long time of him being a git before you fall out of love. I'm really pleased you are putting your foot down and refusing to put up with this treatment any more, because it's very very wrong.

If I were you I'd stop responding to the criticism of your parenting. You know you are a good mother, but some people don't want to be convinced.

GarlicJunoWho · 25/06/2014 12:28

It strikes me that the main thing you two have in common is that you both want YOU to change in order for HIM to change!

Clearly it doesn't work like that. You could change into a blue-faced fairy, he'd still be who he is. You're both working to a magical belief, which has no possibility of coming true.

You aren't his doctor. You're not his therapist. You don't have the power to change another adult by simply being in his presence.

Added to which: Why choose a partner for themselves, then immediately try to change them? You're both doing it! It's like buying a new Mercedes, only to take it apart and try to remodel it into a BMW.

Have you read Robin Norwood's classic, 'Women Who Love Too Much'? It might help you kick-start your therapy. Good luck.

GarlicJunoWho · 25/06/2014 12:29

(Missed a bit off the car simile - you should be with partner who wants the Mercedes you are :) )

FellReturneth · 25/06/2014 12:33

I'm not writing off the relationship yet - but I'm certainly not going back to how it was. I can't. I can't go back to the misery, the anxiety, the controlling, the aggression and the suspicion. If he held his hands up and said that he would change then things might be different, but he hasn't and I don't think he will. So it's a stalemate. This is the first step for me.

WHOAH there Nelly…..you are not writing the relationship off just yet? So you are going to keep trying with this man? So you 'won't go back to the misery, the anxiety, the controlling, the suspicion, the aggression' but you are still going back………..to a man you do not believe is capable of change and who takes no responsibility for his behaviour and prefers to blame you.

What the actual fuck? Shock

Send us a postcard from your hospital bed.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 25/06/2014 12:39

youmake

She won't be the first to stay in a less than perfect relationship while trying to make it work. That in no way means she is neglecting her children, what a horrible unkind, and untrue thing to say to her!

Actually, while this shitstorm of an abusive relationship (not 'less than perfect' a total carcrash) is going on around them, with both their mother and her boyfriend drinking heavily and assaulting each other and their mother being emotionally and physically abused (even if they aren't physically present) they are absolutely suffering. It's absolutely a form of emotional neglect.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 25/06/2014 12:40

OP - you have described at length all the ways he has made you feel shit, scared, humiliated, abused, depressed, miserable yet you also say he is a wonderful man. He's really, really not.

KellyElly · 25/06/2014 12:42

I have strived for two years to be the person he wants and more. I have subjugated my own needs for his, tried my best in every way to look after him and he doesn't see it. Inside I feel bewildered, hurt, shocked, stunned and frightened of the way he's treated me. I don't understand why. A lot of you have said why bother understanding but I need to. He was so lovely in the beginning, in fact he's charm personified in day to day life. Why would he choose to do this? And continue?? It's very possible he is a narcissist and believe me, they don't change, they just strip you down and down until you are a shell of yourself.

If he is, then misery, control, aggression, suspicion and anxiety are all you have to look forward to until you break away.

GarlicJunoWho · 25/06/2014 12:56

He was so lovely in the beginning, in fact he's charm personified in day to day life.

This is an act; a veneer for social survival. The snarling, hollow-eyed, trapped & angry individual you see at the bad times is what's under the coat.

Why would he choose to do this? And continue??

He hasn't got a choice. It's who he is. This is very sad, but it's what it is.

There are people with diagnosed Personality Disorders, and other persistent misconfigurations, who systematically avoid long-term relationships because they choose not to inflict harmful behaviours they cannot help enacting on other people. Some of them are Mumsnetters! What they're doing is responsible, self-aware, and caring. Those who rampage through life, leaving a trail of hurt & wounded behind them, are in the self-serving majority. They can't be 'changed'.

oldgrandmama · 25/06/2014 13:08

pitiful and totally stupid drama that is your 'relationship'. Bitching and moaning and whingeing about it, but then stating: and yet he's a wonderful man in some ways. Really? REALLY? Pay tell, what's 'wonderful' about him?

If you are determined to ruin your life and quite likely put yourself in danger, then carry right on. But your children deserve better. All that stuff about them being not involved is arrant nonsense - if they aren't now (and by the sound of your boozing, quarrelling, nasty stuff from your 'D'P, they must pick up on this), they soon will be. Why the hell don't you WAKE THE UP and lose the nasty jerk. He is NOT 'a wonderful man'. He's a nightmare.

Southpaws · 25/06/2014 13:31

If you are at stalemate, forgive me, but how is this 'the first step'? You are at stalemate because he won't change his behaviour and (you are saying that) you won't tolerate his behaviour. In what world is there a positive outcome to this situation??

YouMakeMeHappy · 25/06/2014 13:39

Eric, I totally disagree that her children are suffering emotional neglect. You simply do not know enough to say that.

The fact is that they are not around him, or around her when she is drinking. She could be (and I'm sure she is) a wonderful mother, despite the relationship.

I understand you are trying to scare her into leaving by saying her children are suffering and that you are doing so because you care. But it won't work because as their mother she will know if they are scared, worried, missing out or otherwise affected. Using her children to motivate her like that will only alinenate her because she will feel like you don't understand and she will feel attacked.

To those LAUGHING at OP because she hasn't walked away; is that how you would treat a friend who came to you for help? Would you say "take my advice, or fuck off, you deserve everything you get"? I think you should be ashamed of yourselves. This man has had years to condition her and influence her thoughts. How can you think that after reading a few posts online she will instantly see the error of her ways and leave him?

You should all be supporting her WHILE/if she decides to leave. Part of the process is trying to get her partner to go back to how he used to be, trying to "fix" the relationship. She is NOT an idiot for not wising up as soon as she reads the replies, other people had to figure it out for themselves and so will OP. It's her life you know, not a bloody game. She's had years of feelings and effort invested in this man and she is in love with who he was at the beginning. It takes time to break away and it can only come from her. It's one thing to read her posts, and immediately see the problem it's not so easy when you are living it and he is "a wonderful man" half the time.

Viviennemary · 25/06/2014 13:41

He sounds an absolute nightmare. And focus on yourself and your DDs for the time being. A future with this man will be a total disaster. Get him out of your life is the only possible thing to do.

YouMakeMeHappy · 25/06/2014 13:43

Oldgranmama, you should change your username to old hag. You really sound like one. Anybody would think OP had personally offended you by the way you talk to her. I don't believe for one minute you care about her children, you are only using them to put her down. If you cared you would have write your post with a little less scorn and ridicule.

There's no worse feeling in the world than being told you are a crap mother when you know you aren't.

Itsfab · 25/06/2014 13:50

You ask if you are in an abusive relationship. My response is your children are as well as you and you need to walk away from this man before you are unable too.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 25/06/2014 13:54

I do know enough. There is a very very small possibility that the children are unaffected by this. There is a huge likelihood that they are affected. Witnessing domestic abuse is classified as significant harm in child protection policy. Even if they are not witnessing it there is no way that OP is not emotionally impacted by what is going on which will have knock on effects on the children and her ability to meet they emotional needs. She is already saying that they are the thing that keeps her going, she is already using them to meet her emotional needs because she is being emotionally damaged by this relationship.

BanjoKazooie · 25/06/2014 13:55

Ok, so not everyone who is posting is being sympathetic or compassionate (Confused ) but EVERYONE is basically say the same thing!

This almost reads like a troll thread as the OPs seems so oblivious to her situation. I couldn't think of a statement more likely to wind up Mumsnet than stating someone who has been physically and emotionally abusive is 'a wonderful man in some ways'.

VSeth · 25/06/2014 13:58

Vile relationship, vile behaviour.

Get out of this relationship, leave the drama behind, get counselling, try to rebuild your dignity and grow up.

Don't believe for a second that your behaviour isn't being picked up by your DD,

Good luck

Itsfab · 25/06/2014 13:58

I despair that there will be millions more women like this in the future as they copy the relationship their mother had.

Whatever is so great about this man is NOT worth the shit he dishes out and dishes out because he can, because he wants to, because he likes controlling you.

What IS so good about it? Does he fuck you nicely, does he bring fish and chips every Friday and allow you a night off from cooking, does he do the school run once a month? What is it that is keeping you in such a destructive relationship that one day your children might copy?

Lweji · 25/06/2014 13:59

I understand you when you say that he is wonderful in some ways.
He has to be to keep you hooked. Otherwise you would have left him.
Everyone can be charming and wonderful in some ways.

The problem are the other ways, in which he is terrible.

It's not how good a person or a relationship can be, but how bad it can be, that should be the bench mark. You should be able to live and still be happy with his bad points. You should love all of him, including accepting his faults. But you can't and you shouldn't. Because his bad points are terrible and make you extremely unhappy. And, in fact, his bad points are downright dangerous for you.

He is toxic and dangerous. You should focus on this to give you strength to move on.

YouMakeMeHappy · 25/06/2014 14:20

Eric, if the children aren't around the drinking and the boyfriend, then the very worst that is happening is that their mum is a bit down on the occasions that she has had an argument with her boyfriend.

That's not ideal, but it doesn't amount to emotional neglect. I think you've misunderstood when you say she uses them as an emotional crutch. Her words were "I rely heavily on their smiles and pictures" which I take to mean she gets a huge amount of pleasure from their love, NOT that she sobs in their arms and tells them her problems. She probably makes a huge effort not to let them know when she is unhappy. She doesn't come across to me as someone who is too wrapped up in her problems to notice her children.

You could say the same about any woman with depression, or who is having a hard time at work. Yes, children are perceptive, but they are to bloody mind readers. If OP makes an effort to keep things normal in front of the kids, I don't doubt they are oblivious.

Honestly, I think people are making to much out of the possible affect on her children. It's unfair when we don't know much. It's going to make her feel so sad and misunderstood. She sounds like she adores them

MorrisZapp · 25/06/2014 14:21

Two years in and not living together, the sex is probably.. still thrilling. The OP is thinking with her knickers in all likelihood.

YouMakeMeHappy · 25/06/2014 14:25

You think so Morris? I think she sounds emotionally involved. All that hassle for a good time in bed? Are you a man if you don't mind me asking?

Good point about them still living apart after two years. Loads of women shack up with a new man after a few months. Waiting two years doesn't sound like someone who's children aren't a priority does it?

Thumbwitch · 25/06/2014 14:30

"I'm not writing off the relationship yet"

You're not in any kind of equal relationship. You are in the thrall of this man.
Of course he is charming and wonderful when he wants to be - otherwise how would he ever attract and keep women? It's the classic hallmark of the abuser that they are ohso charming to start with, make you feel so loved and cared for, as though you are the star in his world, his princess. THAT'S HOW THEY WORK.

Then once you've fallen for it, they start to let their true colours seep out. Apologise to start with when you react with shock - pretend it was a mistake, a slip up, it won't happen again, how could they do that to you, they love you so much, oh God they can't believe they could have risked losing you, please don't go, please give them one more chance, they'll never do it again, promise...

And then they do it again. Same rigmarole, possibly a bit shorter.
And then they do it again. And again. And again. Somewhere along the line, the apologies become conditional - "I shouldn't have lost it with you but you made me so angry" "I didn't mean it, you know I didn't mean it but you pushed my buttons"

And then the apologies just stop, but the blame continues. Now it's just your fault. All of it. But he still loves you in spite of you being such a shit person, and no one else would put up with your shit, so isn't he wonderful for loving you? Pay attention there! He is doing you a favour! So what if he loses his temper? He's still with you, isn't he? Still loves you, doesn't he? So what if he breaks a few bones - no one else would have you, no one else would even look at you - still loves you, doesn't he?

No. No he doesn't love you. He doesn't love you at all. You are his plaything, his toy - he will play with you like a cat does with a mouse and one day he will go too far, and if you're really unlucky you'll join the statistics of being one of the two women per week in the UK killed by their current or ex partners.

JustDontWantToSay · 25/06/2014 14:36

I haven't read right to the very end of replies but I've read enough to need to comment.
I wish some of you could see the happy, privileged existence my daughters lead and how much they are wrapped up in love, security, happiness, boundaries and discipline as all children need from the moment they open their eyes to the moment they go to sleep. I can't help but defend my parenting skills. The turmoil I am going through is firmly buried inside.
Some will have taken what they want from this post and some will understand what I'm going through. Father jake seems a particularly unhelpful poster, but I respect anybody's right to post what they want.
As ever, grateful for the support. This is not a troll thread, all 100% real.

OP posts:
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