Inviting a Crossdresser on your Hen Night

[rachelmonday1]

I'm actually a guy that enjoys crossdressing and am very fortunate to have a number of female friends, one of whom is getting married and has invited me to join her friends on her Hen Night. I don't look too bad when I'm dressed as Rachel and often go out with the girls with no problems.

I'm happily married and my wife understands the "Rachel" side of me, but thinks it's odd that a girl would invite a crossdresser on her Hen Night.

Any views out there?

Slug are you really not aware of the power dynamic that exists universally as male dominated society?

Throughout history, girls and women have been considered lesser than boys and men. Cultural customs and practices exist in order to maintain and bolster that dynamic. Beauty practices and clothing fashion are part and parcel of that. Look at items such as corsets, long skirts, short skirts, bustles, high heels, make up, burquas, bikinis, etc.

All of the above have a function in male dominated society and did not come into existence in a cultural vacuum. They are all political tools which demark girls and women and which say loud and clear what our function and place in society is; to be looked at and to not require freedom of movement that men are allowed. Women are literally hobbled by their clothing and often either put on view for men or hidden from view. Women's bodies are political and therefore so is our clothing.

Men are not universally subjugated by women and men set the rules for both how men and women should be clothed and appear.

A woman dressing in men's clothing does not have the same significance as a man crossdressing. Also it is very unusual for women to get turned on by wearing masculine clothes and they don't tend to put on deep voices just because they have put a pair of trousers on.

Did you read my question about foot binding? High heels are in the same neck of the woods.

A white person blacking their face and portraying a white supremacist stereotype of a person of colour is racist and offensive. A black person lightening their skin and portraying white cultural norms is entirely different. This is because society is white supremacist and not black supremacist. The same goes for sex and gender stereotypes - because society is male supremacist not female supremacist.

Slugs - women "get stared at" and commented on a lot of the time just for being female.

I can only conclude that criticising the views on the thread for being narrowminded and then saying; " We live in a very gendered society, the subconscious impacts of that are huge. It must be very difficult if you want want to wear female clothes as a man. Especially as dresses, heels etc aren't practical." means you've either not read the thread or not understood what was being said.

Blacking up is no longer considered as jolly entertainment, but it used to be. Clubs do not exist for partaking in this activity anymore because it is considered deeply racist and offensive.

Women are considered fair game it would seem.

IMO there is a fetish element to both wearing "sexy undies" as a man and as a woman. What gives us a sexy thrill is highly socialized. Why doesn't sexy underwear exist for men in the same way it does for women? I would say because men are not objectified and sexualized by society in the same way that women are. A women wearing sexy undies is doing what is expected of her by society. A man wearing a sexy bra and knicker set is fertishizing those cultural expectations of women and the physical trappings of the (oppressive) social construction of femininity.

What would you think of a man who fetishized foot binding and tiny shoes? It is more extreme but no different to fetishizing high heels.

Slugs - analyse the word crossdresser... It means dressing across gender.... If men feel the need to be a crossdresser in order to wear clothes they see as 'women's clothes' that's sad and evidence of the damage of gender stereotypes but I'm not sure it is based on anything real and I'm not sure aping women whilst wearing the clothes means they avoid the abuse and it is not an argument that crossdressing is not sexist.

Kim - Of course some men don't NEED to wear such clothes. They want to. The only need for clothes is to stop us getting cold and wet, everything else is a want.

Interesting debate going on here.

Just to put forward a different concept that may or may not be at play; A lot of adults have a hobby that involves them dressing up and assuming a persona. Those involved in re-enactment, people attending sci-fi/fantasy/anime conventions in costume/role, live action roleplayers, etc.

It's not common but also not unusual for people to assume a cross-gender role for such hobbies or events. Obviously each person has their own reasons for choosing to personify someone of a differing gender to their own (just like their reason for getting involved in the hobby in the first place) but I doubt most of them have a sexist or sinister agenda!

Persona assuming hobbies are usually just another form of escapism. Not much different to drinking with friends, losing yourself in a good book, getting wrapped up in supporting your favourite sporting team, etc. Different people enjoy different ways to wind down from their everyday lives.

It sounds like the OP was invited to and attended the event as his female persona, so it's not like he was deceiving anyone. Yes other people at public venues who didn't know him or the situation may not have known his reasons or motivations. But it's not really their business, his presence in feminine attire didn't do them any harm and I expect if they'd have asked he'd have told them!

Glad to hear you had a great time, OP! Given the time you got back, hope you haven't slept your whole day away.

I think the reason is, because of the existence (and their particularly strong belief in them) of gender stereotypes, they cannot reconcile their 'male' and 'female' characteristics/interests.

They can't view themselves as people with attributes, in the case of crossdressers they need to create separate personas in order to express their personhood because they cannot cover up their 'feminine' characteristics or allow their 'male' persona to contain 'female' elements because they believe certain things are male and certain things are female.

It does cause genuine psychological distress I imagine to by be able to express your perceived 'feminine side'. However I would argue that creating a female persona just reinforces those damaging stereotypes, it would be better to overcome the view that there is 'female' and 'male' altogether and allow yourself to be a person.

A person dressing as something imaginary isn't harmful precisely because people haven't harmed imaginary things (they don't exist). Slightly different to a man dressing as a woman, which is the same as a white person blacking up IMO.

Spirael - The presence of a man at a Hen night cross dressing i.e. mocking the women present, did do them harm. Lots of subtle messages every day that women are second class citizens does them great psychological harm.

Imagine during apartheid South Africa the white Afrikaners blacking up and acting out their (misguided) perceptions (which were taught to white children in school) about what people with black skin were (savages)... Bad taste yes? Really offensive yes?

See what I mean?

Besides harm is not judged by whether people express they feel they are being harmed. It requires a more objective measurement than that. Harm is whether something is harmful, by your measure almost all dv is fine because the victims almost never think they are being harmed at the time.

I've been dipping into this thread with a great deal of interest. Several posters have made me think more deeply about why it is that men dressing in women's clothing is, in some situations, discomforting to me.

One thing that has always mad me uneasy is when a man dressing as a woman is referred to as 'she' when he adopts 'female' clothing. The clothes he wears do not make him female. Neither does the name he chooses to use when dressing that way. I'm not talking about transgendered male to female BTW - these people are not 'dressing as' women, they are trying to achieve a consistent and authentic identity. Totally different, as far as I can see.

Yes, but would binding their feet & wearing tiny shoes 'express their feminine side' or make them more like a woman?

I think that is the issue - some people have fetishes & there is all sorts of different fetish wear - some people may even bind their feet. If crossdressing is a sexual fetish, that is one thing, but to imagine that cross dressing as a woman gives you any insight or understanding of actually being a woman is ignorant.

Slugs - the point is not that you might feel fine but that it is fetishising something which is oppressive and harmful and it might be very upsetting to women who had had their feet bound.

Of course you can't stop it but I'm struggling to see why you think it isn't allowed to be criticised.

So many offended people on this thread!

Rachel, I am so glad you had an enjoyable night out, being free to be yourself without shame or ridicule.

Male Crossdressers crossdress because they believe in gender stereotypes to the extent they can't reconcile characteristics and interests in themselves which they consider to fall under 'feminine'

How do you KNOW that? I find that rude and assumptive. What's wrong with them just enjoying the clothes and the makeup and the common interests they share with other women?

This whole concept of gender stereotypes is very interesting. The very existence of gender stereotypes, is not automatically sexist, because it is perfectly acceptable to not fit into that stereotype - if anything, crossdressing smashes those stereotypes. And if the stereotypical image of a woman is so sexist, does that mean that if I choose to wear a little black dress and high heels, I am doing harm to the drive for equality for women? Surely if you judge a crossdresser by their appearance, you are contradicting your own ideals that people shouldn't be judged by their appearance?

Men and women are equal in terms of value, but they are different and always will be, and those differences run far deeper than just their reproductive organs. Many years ago it was believed that gender identity was more about nurture than nature, so when children were born with both sets of reproductive organs, the parents would choose whether they would raise the child as a boy or a girl. It became apparent that their choice was irrelevant. The child, regardless of which gender they had been raised as, would identify as male or female before puberty. The inherent differences between male and female, are inescapable. We should be embracing those differences and celebrating our individuality.

I will continue to be a woman, who enjoys dressing in sexy clothing sometimes and jeans & trainers other times. I have not experienced even a fraction of the types of comments that Offred seems to have attracted. With only a tiny number of exceptions, I have always felt treated equally as a woman.

No cross dressing reinforces stereotypes. What challenges them is a man not trying to dress "as a woman", but simply wearing a skirt or dress.

There is very little inherent difference between women and men, it is largely socialised. Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender uses scientific evidence to explain this.

Yes they include those because it is about dressing "as a woman". It is about stereotypes and mocking women.