I don't want to rip my family apart but I have to. He slapped our DD's face.

[FlatsInDagenham]

I will try to keep the story short. Last night DH slapped our 5yo DD's face because she was being obstinate, arguing and refusing to listen to him. Not hard enough to hurt much, but still, a slap on the face.

He has form for this kind of thing.

I have told him I want to separate.

He is devastated. I am devastated. When DD finds out, she will be devastated too. Our 2yo DD might not notice much but she loves her dad.

So that's 4 devastated people who want to be together but I am forcing us apart.

But I just cannot accept his treatment of our DD. If he had shown any regret or questioned his own actions at all, I might have been able to help him through it. But he stands by his actions "110%". Just like he stood by his actions the other times. I can't stand by him and let it happen again. I can't co-parent with a man who thinks that a 5yo can be "manipulative", has in the past described her as a "little bitch" and thinks it's ok to slap her face.

He's not a bad person (yes I know how that sounds but it's true). But sometimes he gets it so unbelievably wrong - parenting, I mean. He also has alcohol issues (though I must stress that he hadn't been drinking when this happened) that have plagued our marriage for more years than I care to remember. Many times I thought I'd end our relationship over the alcohol. But in the end it's something else that's tipped me over the edge. He slapped our DD's face. For arguing back. I can't come back from that.

Oh God, please tell me I haven't over reacted (he thinks I have). Please tell me if you think I'm splitting up our precious family unnecessarily.

Not sure if this will help at all but you could have been describing my Dad. I remember being kicked up the stairs and slapped on the face . The last time was when I was 12 or 13. It was not viewed as abuse then, I'm really old, because people still slapped and smacked and the ruler was still just in use at my primary school as punishment.
I think my dad did it because he had no idea how to deal with children and was mimicking his upbringing.
My Mum has since told me she would have left but she was a SAHM with no receptive family nearby and it just wasn't thd done thing in those days.
It did affect me, and I wouldn't want your daughter to grow up feeling under valued and lack self esteem because oc her father. I think he probably needs some support and help.

Joysmum, you are are so wrong - please do not say that her and her children would be better off where they are just so they can keep an eye on things - what sort of life is that?

You don't have to call the police if you don't want to - what you need to do is get him to leave, then you can decide how you want to proceed. If it were me i would be making sure that SS were aware (someone needs to be made aware because this will affect access as he should never be left alone with the children) and they will advise you where to go from here.

You are not ripping your family apart. He has. Never forget that. You are protecting your family. Please take care, and stay safe.

posters are imploring you to report it to the police because in the longer term if you split he will have access to both your children, they will stay with him up to 50% of their time and his physical abuse could continue and you would have no evidence to object to this.

if you report it then it will at least be on file to support any future issues.

You should report it to protect her in case he wants unsupervised access.
I very much doubt there will be criminal consequences for him, but it will be on record and it will be flagged up if he goes to court for access.

You should also separate asap to make sure that the children are not taken off you eventually if he continues with this behaviour, the children talk about it to other people and you are thus seen to fail to protect them.
At this point, you should leave or make him leave and only allow supervised access.

I feel for you op. I have a friend in the same situation (actually worse because she was beaten as well as the child). The police, school and ss were involved as were both sets of parents.

They were divorced 3 years ago. Originally he was not allowed contact but over the years with excellent lawyers and an endless pot of money and with government policy favouring increased access for dads, he has had contact reinstated, and recently increased holidays and overnight stays in term time.

I can say categorically that my friend's life has been ruined by this. He recently assaulted her elderly parents, it went to court as the police pressed charges, it was thrown out on a 'technicality', the next day he took their ds for a 2 week holiday where ds asked to go home which he denied.

He knows he can get away with bullying, threatening behaviour and violence. With excellent lawyers anything is possible.

I suggest you use negotiation and try not to escalate this, instead using as much diplomacy as you can manage get signed up on a parenting course asap (Alpha courses are excellent I hear), let both sets of families know what has happened and the school, gp, everybody. Report every incident, record every incident.

Good luck op.

LEMingaround

Joysmum, you are are so wrong - please do not say that her and her children would be better off where they are just so they can keep an eye on things - what sort of life is that?

I did not say that her and her children would be better off where they are.

The risks will increase of more of the same happening when they separate, but I was careful to stress that this didn't mean I felt she was wrong to divorce as a result.

She does need to plan ahead because when she goes, she'll have less influence and be less able to monitor, manage and influence his parenting when they separate. Not a nice thought, but perfectly valid and needs careful consideration at this stage. She needs to find a way of minimising those increased risks and not be under any illusions that the risks won't increase. He may find it more stressful parenting them part time without her. She won't be there to see, intervene and prevent.

Yes, agree and thing important that you will need to report in case he wants unsupervised access.

Oh flats (((hug))) I can relate to your situation - STBXH said/did some awful things to me and the girls. Not that often, but they were bad. In the immediate aftermath he just denied/justified them and felt personally wounded when I objected. It's so hard to believe that deep down these incidents show the abusive attitudes that lie at the heart of someone you loved/married/had children with. In the case of my x his own father was physically abusive so his own tactics were verbal/non verbal (intimidation) but the attitude/impact are not much different. If I were you I think I would not report but just get him out of your house for good. That's what I did. It's very hard but absolutely the right thing.

you are not ripping your family apart. Your H is. Don't ever forget that and don't ever let anyone else tell you otherwise.

Joysmum is absolutely right, the OP's husband will have automatic unsupervised contact unless she reports this. However OP you don't need to report it to the police if you're not comfortable with that. You can call SS to ask for advice or tell your GP on the premise that you want counselling to deal with it. As long as it is logged somewhere official, it will be on file ready to protect your children if needed.

Please don't underestimate how men can change once they stop being inside the tent pissing out and start to be outside pissing in. Once your DH has lost his home and marriage, he has no more reason to be respectful, decent or co-operative with you, so you need to protect yourself now from potential future abuse. Unfortunately the courts in this country bend over backwards to give abusive men contact and inevitably are influenced by the routine misogyny which says that women lie and make things up about abuse - that's why it's so important to get this incident logged.

Also if he has an incipient alcohol problem, the breakdown of his marriage is what can trigger full blown losing control of his drinking and so don't underestimate just how incapable a carer he will be of your children on weekend visits. That is why you must not ignore the need to get this incident on file - please, CAFCASS don't listen to resident parents, they give abusive NRP's the benefit of the doubt over and over again, you must have evidence because your children are too young to be spending weekends with an out of control violent drunk - which is very possibly what your DH will become in the next year or so as the consequences of his choices start to hit him.

I know this may sound all irrelevant to you at the moment because you cannot imagine the lovely man you've loved for 22 years turning into one of these stereotypes - but things have a momentum of their own and the number of women who also couldn't imagine their husbands behaving badly in the event of a split who have been proved wrong, could populate a large-ish size nation.

My dh used to get thumped by his dad.
It's his mum he resents though because he feels she didn't protect him and he feels so let down by that.
I think you have done absolutely the right thing by telling him it's over, please don't waiver.

When my X kicked our son (hard enough to hurt and distress, not hard enough to leave a mark so therefore technically perfectly legal) I reported to SS because I wanted it on record. It won't appear on any DBS checks but it does mean that it's officially documented for safeguarding purposes (along with other things) if I ever need to convince someone that my X is not a fit person to have care of our DC (he is not involved anymore).

I'd leave in a heartbeat if DH ever physically hurt DS the same would apply the other way round.

Children never need to be smacked to learn, there are plenty of other ways to teach children right from wrong. Any type of physical punishment is assault and should be illegal. It is for adults and laws around children should be far stronger as they cannot defend themselves.

You must report this so that it is documented for when he wants unsupervised access.

My dad was a violent alcoholic who used to hit us, and my mum.

How different, and so much better, my life would have been if only she had left him.

I'm not exactly anti-smacking, but agree that this was overstepping the mark.

I was smacked as a child. As were all my friends. Some of them more than others. One was once hit over the head with a bag of tangerines by a parent totally at the end of her tether. In the event, the bag burst, fruit went everywhere and everyone laughed. However, I am talking about one group of people and their personal reactions. I am not condoning the hitting over the head.

I wouldn't say children are "manipulative" but they do learn to push and test boundaries. Some times the way they do this can be more frustrating than others. I have given a soft smack on the bottom once, when warnings, time outs and removal of treats didn't work. It was a last resort, and I was immediately sorry.

I most certainly would not refer to a young child as a "little bitch".

These incidents, combined with past problems around alcohol, combined with lack of remorse are worrying. These suggest a struggle with and inability to control a violent nature. It doesn't sound as though the situation can improve.

However, you say that "he is not a bad person". It sounds as though he could do with some help with anger management issues. Do you know if this is something he would consider?

If you don't want to tell the police right now, you could tell:

• school
• health visitor
• GP

instead and they can advise you on how to proceed.

But the next step is to get this documented. For your DDs you need to do this.

My personal attitude is, perhaps he needs anger management or parenting classes or instruction in flower-arranging. That's his responsibility, and nothing's stopping him. My duty is to keeping my children safe, which is why he's out.

My mum slapped me once in the face when I was about 13. She felt awful straight away and appologised immediately, we gave each other a hug, she never laid a finger on me again.

Your case is very different, your DH did show remorse, calling your child names is not acceptable. However, you clearly feel really bad about leaving, in your shoes i woulf give him another chance, I would talk to him about getting help for the alcohol use, anger management, parenting classes. Clearly he was brought up I this way so he needs to learn.

Did not show...

I might consider a "second" chance, but it would be along he lines of, "you leave now. If you want a second chance you've got six months to show me how you'll earn it". That's when the counselling, AA etc come in.

Your poor, poor daughters.

Abusers are generally sneaky little fucks, OP. These are the incidents you know about.

I am interested in how is he not a bad person.
Why not say he's a good person?

It sounds as there is more, but you think there is good deep down. The thing is that what he's showing is actually his real self, not what you think he is, nor what he does to keep you going.

You need to report him, otherwise you are giving him the powers to demand access to the DCs further down the line, even if you suspect he is still being violent with them, and without you there to protect him.

If it's your word against his how can any court take it into consideration?

Getting it on record is something you can't go back and do in future, once he's started court proceedings for access. It's something you need to do now, to protect your DDs from him in the future.

Also, IIRC legal aid has been cancelled for family law, I think, except where domestic violence is present. So, if you have it on record that there was violence you may be able to get access to funds to fight unsupervised access in the future if you need to. (I'm not 100% on the legal aid bit, it's a recent change, maybe others can advise?).