Would you cut your mother out of your life? - long, sorry

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It sounds really harsh but she has upset me so much and I just don't want her around to hurt me anymore.

A year ago she told me my SIL found it difficult to be around my child who has special needs. It hurt me really badly at the time but I didn't say anything because my brother and SIL are not the most approachable people. In the end I told my brother about it in a row which wasn't the best of times and I apologised for that. I also rang my mum and apologised if I'd got her into trouble (although really it needed to come out into the open and be dealt with).

My mum then completely astounded me by denying telling me any such thing and she, my brother and my SIL have ganged up on me, called me a poisonous liar and my SIL has told me she never wants to see me again (no great loss there actually, I am pretty sure she is largely responsible for my mum's reaction).

My mum subsequently some weeks later asked me if we could put it behind us. I have told her not until she has apologised and accepted responsibility for what she has done. She refuses to do so (she has never been good at apologising, always has to be right) and whilst telling me to my face that she wants to move on I have found out that she is telling other people in the family that I have done a good job of splitting the family up. It is true my older brother has supported me but only because he knows I am not a liar and my mum has always treated him as an outsider in the family and pitted the rest of us against him.

She is really a very manipulative person. I realise that now. But she is very loving if you agree with her. I have liked to think we have had a really close relationship till now - I used to ring her several times a week and talk to her about almost anything - but the reality is that there is a price to pay for that. Whenever there have been disagreements between us she has always blamed me or DH and I have accepted that to keep things running smoothly between us.

I have been aware for some time that she gossips about me to others in the family, mainly because she gossips about all of them to me and criticises and badmouths them, the way they bring up their children, etc. I used to think stupidly at one time that I was her loyal confidante and then realised with a shock that she was talking just as much about me too.

I really feel that I have so many friends and people who I trust and who really seem to care about me in my life, including DH's family (MIL I think loves me more than my own mum does, she is so sweet), why have people around who don't support me and who I am? Certainly there is no subtext with DH's family - what you see is what you get with all of them and I prefer to have friends around me like that too.

I have never stood up to my mum like this before. My older brother always has and that is why he has been badmouthed and ostracised all his life. My little brother (who always agrees with everything my mum says, worryingly so) even told DH some time ago that he doesn't care for my older brother - but he has never got to know him. My older brother is a really nice person but he has his own thoughts and opinions.

I actually feel hugely liberated by what's happened, like I can be free to be who I am now without the shadow of pleasing my mum hanging over me. I will never stop her seeing her grandchildren but don't want to have a close relationship with her anymore. And yet a part of me tells me this is wrong because we have always been close.

By the way, I have tried talking to her over and over and have put my side across numerous times but she keeps side-stepping the issue and not responding to it, says there is no point in discussing it, we both feel betrayed and that's that. And recently she has implied this must be about more than the immediate incident. It isn't! I just don't like being called a liar and blamed for all of this.

Does anyone think I am overreacting about all of this and should just let it go and get on with my mum? Would you feel as upset as I do?

no, of course not. i didn't tell him - you see everything colludes to somehow make you seem like the mega bitch.

it served no purpose telling him , and supposing he had confronted his mother

she would obviously have said " no i didn't!" he would say well my wife says that my brothers girlfriend says you did........

it all gets a bit too eastenders. best to say " i refuse to get involved and would rather not hear your gossip"

that stops them dead - i mean DEAD they dont know what to do!

Well if I ever talk to any of them again I'll try it!! But I have to say, I am enjoying being out of it all - it is much more peaceful. Me, DH and my best friend have all got bets on who the next family scapegoat will be...

And btw Cam, its is usually precisely because these abusive people are family members that they often don't get prosecuted. Me and my brother have in fact recently considered reporting my stepdad to the police and getting him prosecuted for what he did to us (he once pushed my brother off a cliff edge and I witnessed it, I also witnessed my brother being thrown across a room, and my friend witnessed me getting my lip split open so we could probably succeed) and the only thing that is stopping us is that he is my little sister's dad and we don't want to upset her.

Pages, - have read some of the other stories from other posters and am so sad that so many have such fraught relationships with parents, particularly mothers. I guess that the crucial thing for now is to know that you have made the right decisions - and you know that because your spirit feels lighter and your heart has eased.

With regards to your children's relationship with your mum - you made the decision to keep them safe and away from harm because, for now, they are unable to see the potential for harm - that's your job as their mum, and I do think (for what my pennies are worth) that you have definitely made the right decision.

That said, my wonderfully wise older sister once told me that you will only ever make one decision that is irreversable and that is to decide to end your life - all other decisions can be revisited at a later point - they are not carved in stone. So you might decide to allow your children to have some contact later if they start asking questions etc and you feel that they are old enough to grasp why you did what you did -

I guess what I want to re-iterate from my last text is just that you sound very much like you have made the best decision for you and your family for now - my heart breaks for you that you were ever put in a position that that was needed, but I think you will be just fine!

Oh Pages, I am just at what your step-dad has done to you and your brother. I think you should be proud of yourself for trying to maintain a r'ship with your Mum this far and for showing the self-control not to go to the authorities as you have every right to do.

I'm not usually this forward but I'm sending you a hug and the promise that it will get better no matter what you decide to do in the future. At worst, you can keep the good memories you have of your Mum and maybe create some semblance of stability in your life without her. At best, sometime in the future you might be able to come to an understanding with her like I have with mine. Having said that, I probably would do the same again if I had good reason so maybe that's why she treads so carefully

As for being the scapegoat of the family, I kind of enjoy my "black sheep" status. It's hilarious when I walk into the room at a family do and my so-called close family start nudging each other and whispering - I keep my head held high and like to think I come out looking like the pious one and they're just a bunch of twats! Can't pretend it doesn't make me sad that my brother still leaves a room when I walk into it or that I don't have a good old cry every now and then but I like to think I'm a better person for leaving all the politics and nastiness behind me and "rising above" (hope that doesn't come out too sanctimonious...).

Anyway, keep your chin up and concentrate on you for a change. You can't control other people's behaviour but you can prevent yourself from getting caught up in all the emotional crap xxx

Thanks you two. Sorry for being so graphic but after trying not to dignify Cam's "If they don't get prosecuted they can't be that bad" comment with an answer, I had a glass of wine or two and couldn't restrain myself any longer!

Lol about your scaepgoat status cashncarry, but sad for you too that you have such idiotic sibs. I think my sister may have gone over to the other camp because my mum is very good at getting people to rescue her (and as many of you know that is a predictable outcome when you stand up to a toxic parent)but I have my older brother and we have vowed not to let them divide us. That said, I have been ganged up on many times in my life for much lesser issues and I know it does hurt.

Coolmama, you are right. My heart is somewhat heavy atm but my spirt is soaring like a kite. It is a weird feeling. And you are right that nothing is irreversible so whatever I do I can comfort myself that it is for now.

So sorry too for all the awful stuff that some of you others have been through, but guess it is nice to know that by getting through it you can be a sort of comfort to others. You have certainly all comforted me beyond measure. Hope Greensleeves and Dior are ok.

Plus the others' answers were so spot on, in any event, particularly the one about Rosemary West's apple pie...yeuch.

Message withdrawn

I didn't say those words Pages and that's not what I meant.

But, guess what?

I'm tired of defending myself now, so feel free to misquote me endlessly from here on.

"If they're really all those things, how have they escaped court action or notice by some authority or other?" Cam, what did you mean then? It sounded to me like you were saying that if our mothers (or parents because my mum wasn't the abuser, she was the passive abuser) were really all those things then they wouldn't have gone unnoticed by the authorities. If I have got that wrong please feel free to correct me. I hope I have got it wrong.

"Those things" surely must refer to the post from catsmother prior to yours ... I quote: "sustained misery, persecution, deliberate cruelty (mental or physical), extreme stress, drug and/or alcohol addiction, mental conditions which may explain someone's behaviour but which makes it no less easy to cope with (or to expose children to), sadism, erosion of self-worth over decades, bullying, people who are determined dangerous liars (and so on)-"

With regards to the "other side of the story" most toxic parents will counterattack any allegations. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Some typical parental reactions to confrontation are as follows

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

Pages - my best wishes to you and your own family unit.

Actually Attila, as you know, I read the book after you recommended it on Dior's thread and the bit you have just quoted made me and my brother feel quite spooked - we have tried to confront my mum in the past and again since this began and she has used every single one of those stock replies!! Also, clearly, with reference to the recent incident, when confronted with the problem that I told someone what she had been saying she used the "It didn't happen" ("Pages made it up, she's a liar") approach. So I am well aware of what she is doing. Me and my brother HAVE stood our ground and HAVE experienced our finest hour.

The book was so spot on in so many places, it was like reading about my family. Interestingly it was the small chapter about siblings' reactions that really made me grab the highlighter pen (don't normally write in books but couldn't control myself here!) and I think someone else has referred to it on this thread. Cashncarry, you may be interested to read it if you haven't already. It's too much to go into but it totally mirrors mine (my mum being prepared to initially accept she may have done something wrong - which she almost did - then my brother and SIL persuading her that I am the evil one and she is a saint, kind of thing.....) Textbook stuff, as they say.

Actually Cam, that's another thing that my mother does, which is to say something upsetting and then deny having said it and blame me for misquoting her. It seems to me that others also read your comments the way I did, hence the "Rosemary and Fred West getting off scot free for ages" comments. I don't think I have misquoted you at all. This is exactly the sort of thing I would have let go in the past but standing up for myself has got to be a bit of a habit lately.

Pages - I've not been able to get on -line for several days. I've been thinking about you/your situation and wonder how you are doing?

This has turned out to be an interesting thread.

Hi Kameko! I am actually really fine, thanks for asking! Standing up for myself is the best thing I have done. Trying to keep things on an even keel as I have done most of my life was far more detrimental to me. Seems there are a lot of threads about relationships with mothers this week...

Well Pages, I don't know if it's just me but in your more recent posts you sound more self-confident than you did when you originally posted ..... more assured in your feelings about this issue, and I'm really pleased that you and your brother seem to have found a way of working through and dealing with this in a way that's right for you and your children. It can't be easy but you have absolutely every right (as does anyone) to challenge things which are making your life a misery. I wish you all the best for the future.

No it's not just you catsmother, everyone has been commenting on how much more grounded and self-confident I am, my brother and a friend commented on the same thing a couple of days ago. Poor DS1 has got a bug though and is throwing up so am going to have to go...thanks again for the support you lot.

bloody well done, pages! i think you're doing brilliantly!

Cam, are you STILL at it !!!
You have said some very hurtful things on a topic you know nothing about...unless you know more about this subject than you are willing to let on, and that is why you are so keen to defend our mothers.
Interesting that Cam is so keen to deny any of our feelings on this, and is using some of the trivialising lines that our own mothers use. wonder why she is so invested in this thread...

And yes, Pages, keep at it and hold your ground. I was the same with that book- I havent read it,but Ive read all about those quotes on the internet. It was like a revelation! As you said, ALL of those examples refer to my mother. I believe I was very lucky with regard to my siblings, and I havent lost them, like other people have. I was willing to, but they pulled through.
Bless your brother. Just nurture that relationship with him

Thanks Sakura, I will. x

My brother has got my copy of the book atm and the chapter I referred to about siblings isn't on the internet but it says basically (for anyone who wants to know) that...

Confrontation of your parents will have a ripple effect in the family and on your siblings, whose experiences growing up in the family may be different to yours, and don't be surprised if they jump to your parents' defence and deny that any of the abuse happened and attack you for being so cruel. An example was given whereby one girl confronted her father about the years of sexual abuse she suffered as a child. Her father, to her surprise apologised - said he didn't remember it being that bad - but if it was, he was sorry. The girl was astounded and delighted, thinking that she may after all be able to go forward and have an honest open relationship with her father. She then got an angry phone call from her brother telling her how dare she attack their father like that and make up such a pack of disgusting lies that he had sexually abused her - it didn't happen and he wanted nothing more to do with her. When she phoned her Dad, he not only denied that the abuse happened but also denied that he had recently apologised for it. She was cast out of the family. This is more or less what has happened to me, about the recent stuff which formed my original post, because my mum did start off by accepting she may have said something to me about my SIL until she spoke to my brother.

But the book also said that you may develop a new and deep relationship with another sibling who does have similar memories to yours (that have never been acknowledged and discussed because the family has always managed to stop this happeneing). This is definitely what has happened with me and my older brother. It is obvious why, because the younger siblings in my family escaped the abuse and didn't witness it. Although my younger brother did see a lot (the whole family was there when my brother got pushed off a cliff - and he had to go to hospital) but he chooses to believe my mum's "it wasn't that bad really, your brother was a very difficult child" line of reasoning about it all.

And thanks warty, your encouragement really helps

so glad to hear you are feeling stronger already - isn't it amazing how, having stepped back and taken a deep breath, you can see how much of your precious energy you have had to use up and waste just to "stay on an even keel" - now that you don't need that anymore, you can direct all that energy into something worthwhile like taking care of you!! What a wonderful gift to give yourself - !

That's exactly it - the energy is freed up. It's like lancing a boil! Or taking the first step after a long illness - exciting! DH worries about what I will do when older brother and his family go back to Oz in a month's time, which sadly they are doing, and he thinks my mum is a tougher cookie than me and is worried I will collapse. But he is under-estimating me I think. And my brother will always be there by email and phone.