Would you cut your mother out of your life? - long, sorry

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It sounds really harsh but she has upset me so much and I just don't want her around to hurt me anymore.

A year ago she told me my SIL found it difficult to be around my child who has special needs. It hurt me really badly at the time but I didn't say anything because my brother and SIL are not the most approachable people. In the end I told my brother about it in a row which wasn't the best of times and I apologised for that. I also rang my mum and apologised if I'd got her into trouble (although really it needed to come out into the open and be dealt with).

My mum then completely astounded me by denying telling me any such thing and she, my brother and my SIL have ganged up on me, called me a poisonous liar and my SIL has told me she never wants to see me again (no great loss there actually, I am pretty sure she is largely responsible for my mum's reaction).

My mum subsequently some weeks later asked me if we could put it behind us. I have told her not until she has apologised and accepted responsibility for what she has done. She refuses to do so (she has never been good at apologising, always has to be right) and whilst telling me to my face that she wants to move on I have found out that she is telling other people in the family that I have done a good job of splitting the family up. It is true my older brother has supported me but only because he knows I am not a liar and my mum has always treated him as an outsider in the family and pitted the rest of us against him.

She is really a very manipulative person. I realise that now. But she is very loving if you agree with her. I have liked to think we have had a really close relationship till now - I used to ring her several times a week and talk to her about almost anything - but the reality is that there is a price to pay for that. Whenever there have been disagreements between us she has always blamed me or DH and I have accepted that to keep things running smoothly between us.

I have been aware for some time that she gossips about me to others in the family, mainly because she gossips about all of them to me and criticises and badmouths them, the way they bring up their children, etc. I used to think stupidly at one time that I was her loyal confidante and then realised with a shock that she was talking just as much about me too.

I really feel that I have so many friends and people who I trust and who really seem to care about me in my life, including DH's family (MIL I think loves me more than my own mum does, she is so sweet), why have people around who don't support me and who I am? Certainly there is no subtext with DH's family - what you see is what you get with all of them and I prefer to have friends around me like that too.

I have never stood up to my mum like this before. My older brother always has and that is why he has been badmouthed and ostracised all his life. My little brother (who always agrees with everything my mum says, worryingly so) even told DH some time ago that he doesn't care for my older brother - but he has never got to know him. My older brother is a really nice person but he has his own thoughts and opinions.

I actually feel hugely liberated by what's happened, like I can be free to be who I am now without the shadow of pleasing my mum hanging over me. I will never stop her seeing her grandchildren but don't want to have a close relationship with her anymore. And yet a part of me tells me this is wrong because we have always been close.

By the way, I have tried talking to her over and over and have put my side across numerous times but she keeps side-stepping the issue and not responding to it, says there is no point in discussing it, we both feel betrayed and that's that. And recently she has implied this must be about more than the immediate incident. It isn't! I just don't like being called a liar and blamed for all of this.

Does anyone think I am overreacting about all of this and should just let it go and get on with my mum? Would you feel as upset as I do?

Message withdrawn

Thanks Dior. I nearly CAT'd you the other day as I too have been wondering how you are getting on. The situation with your sister sounds almost exactly the same as with mine. (I thought my sister was neutral and so had respected that and not discussed it with her only to find out mum and brother had meanwhile been discussing it with her and got her on side...) Thanks for saying that about the card. It felt I was putting the knife in by not making sure her birthday was happy but it didn't feel right or me being real to send it.

Pages, how are you today? (It's already Monday here)

Just wanted to share with you, I saw my mum at the post office 3 days before I left UK to emigrate....she saw me...looked straight through me. She knew I was emigrating. I was in shock, mostly because if that was MY last chance to make amends with my daughter, I would have taken it. There was no way that I could have spoken first, the rejection that would have ensued has been far too painful in the past.

I told my brother that a part of me wished she had said hello, how are you...said anything...at least I would have known she cared enough to try! It just pointd out what I knew all along...she didn't love me anymore...

Yes, hunny it hurts. You say "leave me alone" in the hope that they won't, because really, the child inside doesn't want to let go.

I don't know what to say to make the hurt stop...only that you are strong & in control of this..continue to be. Of course you will have bad days, it's early yet. Just keep focused on why you are doing this. Maybe the fact that they can't be bothered just proves a point? Unless they have you to bully, what's the point?

Thanks Sandcastles. I wish I was emigrating... but I think the reality is finally dawning on me that it is just me (and older brother) who wants things to change - they don't want it, they like things how they are and they will just be viewing this as further evidence of what a troublemaker I am, how hurtful I am to my mum, etc etc

I think all of you who have stopped having a relationship with your mothers/family have said it hurts a lot but gets better...and then feels great! I am holding onto that.

And yes, Sandcastles you would have thought she would have wanted to take that last chance wouldn't you? Likewise my mum seems to be prepared to let my brother go back to Oz in 3 weeks and not make it up with us before. I can't imagine letting one of my children go like that... I think that's why it hurts so much, as we now have children and know how overwhelming our feelings are for our children - it's hard to accept that our mothers don't feel the same way about us.

Hang in there Pages, I really do think you are doing the right thing. I can relate to so much of what you've said, and I know it hurts - although you are the one breaking ties, in a sense what you are experiencing is abandonment, because her hurtful behaviour has left you with no choice - of course it hurts like hell. But you will feel better later. GS xx

This is long because there are lots of points which have been raised that I wanted to offer my thoughts on.

Your mother is not going to change at this stage, so if it were me, I would limit my family's exposure to her and not expect anything from her by way of apology, reconciliation, etc. It's much better to let all the angst go and focus on something positive, ie. looking after your own family unit...

My mother's mother caused problems between my mother and my brother, ending up with my brother going to live with my grandmother and mother and brother not talking for about 10 years. (Myself and my sister had nothing to do with him during this time, so our relationship with him was irreperably damaged sadly, proving your ripple effect theory! I have never been bothered by not knowing my grandmother because she really seems to have been a nasty piece of work...) Anyway, it was even longer for my mother and grandmother, but they did "reconcile" shortly before my grandmother passed away, mostly because my mother took the view that she was elderly and didn't have that much longer in this world. I am glad my mother made her peace with her because she was upset enough when her mother died and I think it would have been worse if they still hadn't been talking.

The point is that NO decision has to be forever and just because you have cut contact with your family now does not necessarily mean that you will never have anything to do with them again. So don't think of it as forever and just take one day at a time... :-)

Whilst I don't want to cause anything to kick off, I can see something in what Cam says about the mother's point of view. I have lots of issues with my mother which I won't bore you with, but when I look at her own family situation and upbringing, I can see that she is the product of a dysfunctional family and I think that helps me to be more tolerant/forgiving of her. Whilst there is no doubt that she is someone who needs to control everything around her and is a bit of a bully, she is also a very unhappy person, dependent on prescription drugs, who is mostly scared of rejection, scared of letting people get close to her and constantly trying to pre-empt someone else rejecting her. I'm not saying that this excuses the things she has done in the past, but you can't change the past, unfortunately, and forgiving her for the things she has done means I don't have to carry a whole load of negative cr*p around with me. On the other hand, I will happily tell her where to get off, we always argue and have periods of not talking and we are constantly drawing lines under arguments - with no apology on either side! But I am wary of her ability to hurt me and my family and would be prepared to cut off contact with her if I thought it would damage my ds or dh.

Finally, I don't know what it is like to have a child with special needs, but I agree that there are lots of other people in the world who are ready to make any child's life miserable without having your supposed nearest and dearest contributing to it... If it were me, I would probably be limiting my ds's exposure to such negativity anyway, regardless of any issues I had with my mother.

In case the message was too rambling, I wanted to say that I think you have done the right thing. Don't get upset thinking that you will never have anything to do with your family again as things change with time and do try to focus on the more positive (and enjoyable!) things in the here and now, ie. your family unit.

Thanks for the support. I know you are right that I just have to accept that my mum won't change and the others are conditioned by her to rescue her from me and my evil nature...

I also know why my mum is the way she is too and even feel sorry for her for the lack of love she experienced as a child and my own GM's harsh treatment of her. But it doesn't alter the fact that she is still revisiting her own poor treatment on me and whilst I could accept and live with what happened in the past (although now having my own children and loving them the way I do makes it hard for me to understand why her genetic urge to protect me and my brother wasn't stronger)but i can't accept that she is continuing to do it in the present day, that is the problem.

I have asked myself a hundred times whether this all really had to happen, and whether I could have dealt with it differently, accepted what was said about me and shrugged it off, etc etc and I know the answer to that is no I couldn't, not without losing what little self-respect I have been left with after years of this treatment by my family.

I don't feel that my mum will be a bad influence on my children as my situation is different from Greensleeves' and I would have liked her to continue to have a relationship with them. Like Greensleeves I find it really painful that my children are growing up and she is missing out on that. But she has a clear choice - I have contacted her numerous times and told her how I want things to change. She hasn't responded, not even to ask to see the children. She has just told my brother, sister and SIL I am splitting up the family and got them to have a go at me instead.

I think it's a real shame that she can't take a step back and see the bigger picture... I am sure she will regret her actions in time. If you would have liked her to have a relationship with your children, perhaps you could get them to send her a birthday card/Christmas card to keep the door open? Like that, you're not backing down or maintaining a relationship, but it would keep a channel of communication open in case she ever saw the error of her ways and keep your options open. Speaking from my family's experience, the longer time goes with no contact at all, the harder it is to re-establish contact, no matter how sorry you are...

Pages, the thing is now is that she will NEVER meet dd. That doesn't bother me in the slightest. But what do I do when dd is old enough to understand? Asks me where my mum is? Do I tell that she totally missed the last ever opurtunity to meet her youngest grandchild? That when i told her to get in touch when dd was born, she just ignored me? Told my sister that if I wanted HER to meet MY dd, I should call HER!!! I didn't want he to meet her, I just tried to extend that olive branch....Do I tell her that she let me walk away, knowing that she would never see any of us again...that she looked at me that day like I was someone who she didn't even know? Much less care about & gave birth to?

No, I don't but one day i have to tell her something, I just don't know what and THAT is what breaks my heart!

I honestly don't think your DD will be too bothered Sandcastles, as I don't think my DS's will (they don't even know who my mum is anyway atm, as DS2 too young and DS1 is not aware enough/hasn't seen enough of her - she lives a long way from me). I could be wrong but it seems most people who have posted on here who have not had a relationship with their grandparents have not really minded. I never had one with mine and DH knew his but didn't have a relationship with them and it isn't really important to us. Certainly our Gps weren't the cuddly loveable types anyway - they all had some degree of mental health problems IMO.

From my pov my DS's have their other granny and aunts, uncles and cousins who they see all the time. I am more upset for my mum as she is missing out but that is her choice as it was your mum's Sancastles. I would just tell your DD that she has a G in England but that you and she are not close like she and her mummy are.

I agree that the longer this goes on the worse it will be which is why I tried to bring it to a head, my older b is already saying he doesn't care anymore and seems to have moved on without them, doesn't seem to care at all that he is going back to OZ without saying goodbye to them, and I reckon once I have gone through the hurt of the loss I will end up that way too. My mum has always thought she is indispensable to us all, I am sure she took it for granted that I would just take this lying down - it is probably a bit of a shock but she probably believes I can't/won't manage without her. I will!

pages, your suggestion of what to say to dd, should the need arise, is lovely. Simple, but gets the point cross.

You are going to go thru an almost grieving like experience. Where some days are good, some bad. It does get better. I hadn't cried over what happened to mine & my mums relationship for years until I saw her that day. I didn't even cry then...it was only whles post here that I cried. I don't cry for her, I cry for me, because as a dauhgter (and a mother0 I can't understand why she finds it so easy to turn her back on me. To breeze by me as if I am a stranger..

She was the same, always telling my sister (who is thankfully neutral) that i would go running back as I an't live without her, I'm too weak etc, dh doesn't care enough etc). But I was strong enough and tbh, not having her there is like not having to carry a huge burden, waiting for the nxt insult/critisism/put down/lie about my child hood/lie about my dad.

My life is easier, but I miss having a mum to share all my girlie stuff with, bt my sister makes up for that, as does my dad (he has 5 girls,3 raised soley by him, not much he doesn't know, let me tell you!!!)

GS, I hope you don't mind me asking because I know it is all very raw for you but how long has it been since you made the decision and did you have to tell your mother anything or did you just walk away and refuse to answer her calls? I understand if you don't want to talk about it, it's just you do really seem to know what I am going through as it is all fairly recent for you.

I didn't mean that to sound as if no-one else does, your help has been enormous. I think I need to stop fretting about this and get over it! Sorry for waffling on and on...

Hi Pages, no I don't mind talking about it at all - I hope my experience can help you make your decisions, although of course your situation and mine won't be quite the same.

I had a falling-out with my mother which followed the same course as previous big rows - she didn't like the way one of my decisions about my son was going to affect her and tried to use pressure and emotional blackmail to influence me. I calmly insisted that I was going to do what I was going to do, and pointed out to her, in a couple of phone calls which quickly became emotional and bitter and ended in her hanging up. I then received a couple of emails, quite impassioned and irrational in places in which she basically said that I hated her and didn't value our relationship at all, and that I had planned all along to deprive her of her grandchildren, etc etc.

It was then obvious to me that this was going to follow the same course as previous episodes - up to thirty phone calls a day, quick-fire insults and outbursts with her hanging up before I/dh had a chance to respond. She also sent several emails which were very hurtful and, as expected, dragged up everything she could think of about all previous family rows which were supposed to have been settled (nothing with my mother is ever really settled or forgiven).

I made the decision then that I could not go on indefinitely tolerating this level of stress - every time I needed to make a decision that affected her or might displease her, I walked on eggshells waiting for another of her protracted tantrums. I can't live like that. Something snapped inside me, frankly - it was a very long time in coming, but I can't go back from it. I don't want my children to grow up with it either.

I sent her a long, very carefully written email - I read and reread it many times before sending it. It contained all the things I felt I needed to say which she would never have listened to in person - she would hang up or walk away. I tried very hard not to make any cruel or unnecessary remarks - the aim was not to inflict any more pain than necessary. I told her how her behaviour affected me and why I could no longer tolerate it. I also told her that I had come to the conclusion that there was no trust, respect or future in the relationship, because even after years of "closeness", she still dragegd up resentments from the relatively past as though nothing had happened in between. I tried to make the email as honest and clear as possible, and accept my own share of the responsibility for allowing things to go on as they were for so long.

After sending it, I did not contact her further or respond to her calls/emails at all.

In our particular case, my mother was unable to accept this and we ended up having to involve the police to get her to leave us alone. I haven't changed my mind, although I have found the whole process incredibly painful and difficult myself. I have nightmares and huge guilt and am on AD's and everything else you would expect after cutting your mother out of your life. I have days where I suddenly just go cold with horror at what I have done. But when I think of going back to a situation in which she can hold our whole family to ransom with incessant abusive screaming fits over the phone, dump things on our doorstep, turn up and follow us in person, send abusive letters and emails - no, I won't be going back. If she really loved her grandchildren, or me, as much as she says she does, she would get help. She knows she is ill, she has known it for years, and she chooses to stay that way.

I know this is very long, but I hope you can pick out the bits which are of use to you, Pages. I wish you all the very best, whatever you decide to do.

Sorry Pages - this was in January. Although as you'll gather, it dragged on a bit.

Thanks GS, reading this has been immensely helpful. Although my mother's form of emotional blackmail has always been the cold silent treatment to my face and badmouthing me to other family members behind my back(quite unlike your mother's very in-your-face, irratic and clearly unhinged behaviour) the way things have ended has been similar, and the stress levels have been too because I have always been so afraid of doing anything to upset my mother for fear of her abandoning me that I have been paralysed with it at times, unable to work, look after my children properly, etc,. My brother told me today he is revelling in the freedom of not living with that any more. I am still grieving but like you I was close with her in between the mad bits so I have lost more than he has. (She rejected him a long time ago).

I am still, like you and many others on this thread, reeling from my decision but it has already been made because I too spelt out everything in an email and told my mother and the rest of the family that I would no longer accept being treated as the family scapegoat. I did give them a choice, which was to treat me better or leave me alone and they have chosen to do the latter. But it was my ultimatum, and I knew deep down that it would be the end, for me and my mum at least. I really don't think my mother will change (I may be wrong but everyone has told me I musn't sit by the computer waiting for it)although if history repeats itself then my siblings and I may well restore our relationship after my mother dies (as my mother did with her brother who she was estranged from for 20 odd years).

So you are 6 months further on than I am GS. Thanks, it has really helped me to read your post. I have been feeling loads stronger again today but of course it is going to take time as cashncarry said because we are not heartless robots.

I have read most of this thread and part way through I felt I must post if only in the hope that what I have to say may help someone feel better. I come from a long line of incredibly poisonous mother daughter relationships. The worst being my mother and her mother. My gran is a poisonous vindictive woman a compulsive liar and a malicious gossiper. She says horrible things about people myself and my mother included. She made my mothers childhood a misery. She has continued to make her adult life a misery too. She caused my mother to suffer from severe depression which affected her relationships with people, her relationship with me and her ability to work. The pattern has repeated in some respects with my own mother but I have been determined to break the cycle and took measures to do so. I have tried to encourage my mother to reduce contact with Gran, she wants to but feels too scared and too obligated to distance herself. I have had to distance myself from my gran because I cannot accept that sort of negative influence in my own life. My childhood and my adult life and my relationships would have been a great deal better had Grandma not been a part of my life. I would have been (and still would be) incredibly proud of my mother for being brave enough and strong enough to stand up to her mother. Now that I am about to have my own child I have had to seriously think about how much contact I will allow him to have with my Gran as I do not want him to have to go through what my mother and I have had to suffer. Greensleeves and Pages I think you are incredibly strong and brave women, don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise.

Thanks Bewilderbeast x
It is fascinating to read all your family histories. It seems quite clear that we are cabable of getting healthier generation by generation which is a very encouraging and life affirming thought. I feel quite positive about this all of a sudden!

Hi Pages,
It does get better and easier, as long as you stick to your guns . I`m about one and a half years on and although I still think about it all a LOT, it is not as painful as it was when I was actually doing the breaking away.

As wartywarhog said, Im sure at this point they dont quite realise how serious you are and don`t expect you to call their bluff. Although, I really think you have to move forward from hoping and waiting for any kind of contact.

I agree with most of what mumpbump said- about the fact that our mothers deserve to be pitied more than anything else. They have missed out on a loving relationship with their children, and have not managed to face their psychological issues. I think my mothers childhood couldnt have been ideal for her to treat me the way she has. I have had to accept that she must be a very ill person ( the alternative- that she just doesnt love me, is too painful to consider) But my grandmother (her mother) is a lovely, perfect granny, so I just dont get it. She looked after me a lot when I was little and my mum was in work, and some of my nicest memories are being there. As far as I can tell, she was the spoilt one in her family. But she must harbour a lot of self-hatred to treat her children the way she did. Also, maybe my Nana was a lovely grandmother, but a crap mother, I just dont know. But I dont agree that "forgiveness" is the way to move forward. In the past, I truly belived it was, but thinking like that was what kept me trapped under her influence for so long. I think forgiveness is important, but we also have to make people accountable for their actions. They are not children, and they need to know that behaving a certain way brings about consequences. By continuing to forgive my mum, I was telling her that her behaviour was allright. It was only when I stopped forgiving her that I managed to move on. I can forgive her in the sense that I know she must be somehow ill and she is obviously not a happy person at all. But that is mainly pity. I can`t forgive her in the sense of letting her back into my life so I become depressed and my work/relationships suffer.

I`m glad that it has been mentioned that people who had no contact with their grandparents are no worse off. That is my big worry too. But if you weigh up the pros and cons, and realise that the chaos and upset she brings is more than the positive things, then you really have no choice.

You're right about the forgiveness Sakura, that is what also kept me in denial about mine and my mum's true relationship for such a long time. I tried to confront my mother 10 years ago about the stuff in the past and her reaction was such a "victim" one that I immediately stopped and rescued her and spent the next 10 years saying "You're not a bad mother... I have lots of lovely childhood memories, don't beat yourself up." She is now asking why I am dragging it all up again (through my sister of course)- answer: because it never went away.

And actually, my childhood memories (although I can remember doing nice things, going to nice places, holidays, etc.)were always blighted by my stepdad hitting one of us, one of us running away and my mum not bothering to go and find them (at 5 years old!)and an atmosphere, etc. I can't recall any warm memory of just feeling loved, protected and happy, or any close moment of being cuddled or kissed. Any truly happy memories I have are of things I did on my own.

I heard a mother speaking on the radio this a.m about her daughter dying and their relationship sounded so utterly fantastic I was in floods of tears but I now realise that whilst my mother has been "close" to me a lot of times in my adult life (mostly when giving me advice)I have been in denial, wanting to think we had this lovely mother daughter relationship when we clearly don't. And like Dior, Greensleeves, Sakura, Cashncarry - all of us who want that - we have to just realise we never ttruly did and never will.

But the good news is we WIll have that with OUR children! Those of you with DD's give them a big kiss today from me!

PS I say that because I have two DS's and so won't ever have the mother daughter relationship. But my boys are extremely cuddly and loving so it's okay!

I don't think forgiving someone necessarily means that you have to carry on a relationship with them. Perhaps forgiveness isn't the right word, but if you can come to terms with the cr*p that they've put on you and "make your peace" (sorry for corny new age phrase!), you avoid carrying around a lot of negative emotion and letting them continue to upset you.

Munz - speaking as someone who has seen the emotions of a reconciliation after a long period of non-communication and is therefore very conscious of how hard it is not just to make that decision, but to live with it) it just makes me sad to think that you might one day regret your decision and have no way back... The only reason my mother and brother started talking again was because mutual friends effectively ambushed them.

Anyway, I don't want to bring you down and I definitely think you are doing the right thing. As I say, it's just a shame that your mother isn't more self-reflective...

Mumpbump, who is Munz?

I know what you mean about forgiveness. I think Sakura summed it up. It is not about walking around feeling bitter and hateful, it is about making peace with yourself and understanding why she is the way she is but not absolving your mother of any blame and in the present day choosing not to have a relationship with her because that is tantamount to saying what she has done and is doing now, still, is ok.

Sorry - not sure where I got Munz from! Anyway, stick to your guns and I hope she does come around...