Would you cut your mother out of your life? - long, sorry

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It sounds really harsh but she has upset me so much and I just don't want her around to hurt me anymore.

A year ago she told me my SIL found it difficult to be around my child who has special needs. It hurt me really badly at the time but I didn't say anything because my brother and SIL are not the most approachable people. In the end I told my brother about it in a row which wasn't the best of times and I apologised for that. I also rang my mum and apologised if I'd got her into trouble (although really it needed to come out into the open and be dealt with).

My mum then completely astounded me by denying telling me any such thing and she, my brother and my SIL have ganged up on me, called me a poisonous liar and my SIL has told me she never wants to see me again (no great loss there actually, I am pretty sure she is largely responsible for my mum's reaction).

My mum subsequently some weeks later asked me if we could put it behind us. I have told her not until she has apologised and accepted responsibility for what she has done. She refuses to do so (she has never been good at apologising, always has to be right) and whilst telling me to my face that she wants to move on I have found out that she is telling other people in the family that I have done a good job of splitting the family up. It is true my older brother has supported me but only because he knows I am not a liar and my mum has always treated him as an outsider in the family and pitted the rest of us against him.

She is really a very manipulative person. I realise that now. But she is very loving if you agree with her. I have liked to think we have had a really close relationship till now - I used to ring her several times a week and talk to her about almost anything - but the reality is that there is a price to pay for that. Whenever there have been disagreements between us she has always blamed me or DH and I have accepted that to keep things running smoothly between us.

I have been aware for some time that she gossips about me to others in the family, mainly because she gossips about all of them to me and criticises and badmouths them, the way they bring up their children, etc. I used to think stupidly at one time that I was her loyal confidante and then realised with a shock that she was talking just as much about me too.

I really feel that I have so many friends and people who I trust and who really seem to care about me in my life, including DH's family (MIL I think loves me more than my own mum does, she is so sweet), why have people around who don't support me and who I am? Certainly there is no subtext with DH's family - what you see is what you get with all of them and I prefer to have friends around me like that too.

I have never stood up to my mum like this before. My older brother always has and that is why he has been badmouthed and ostracised all his life. My little brother (who always agrees with everything my mum says, worryingly so) even told DH some time ago that he doesn't care for my older brother - but he has never got to know him. My older brother is a really nice person but he has his own thoughts and opinions.

I actually feel hugely liberated by what's happened, like I can be free to be who I am now without the shadow of pleasing my mum hanging over me. I will never stop her seeing her grandchildren but don't want to have a close relationship with her anymore. And yet a part of me tells me this is wrong because we have always been close.

By the way, I have tried talking to her over and over and have put my side across numerous times but she keeps side-stepping the issue and not responding to it, says there is no point in discussing it, we both feel betrayed and that's that. And recently she has implied this must be about more than the immediate incident. It isn't! I just don't like being called a liar and blamed for all of this.

Does anyone think I am overreacting about all of this and should just let it go and get on with my mum? Would you feel as upset as I do?

I'm the Gruffalo

cam,
i think the point you are missing is that all of the ladies on here would deeply love a relationship with their mother. when we are hurt or in trouble, we crave that motherly love.

but can you imagine realising that when you are at your lowest point and you turn to your mother and she is the very person who is kicking you in the face when you are down.

luckily my mother in law is normal, and we get on fine apart from the usual mil issues i.e i have to share my dh with her...

i am hoping to figure out a way that my mother can see my kids in the future but until i can think about her without feeling physically sick, i m not sure how to go about it. she does have some redeeming features, but her nastiness is way out of proportion to anything else in her personality.

i can t be angry at cam.
to me, her comments are the same as telling a girl who had been sexually abused or raped by her father/uncle to grow up and forgive him because he s family.

the fact that its our mother who has done this to us, makes it all the worse, considering she is the person we should have been able to rely on to look after us when we were young vulnerable . instead, she turns out to be one of the only people we have come accross who has tried to actively hurt us, emotionally or physically.

ohhh cam got into a barny - am well impressed

can i just add that a rel\ionship is a two way thing. my mother doesn't send my children birthday cards or xmas cards. She has toldme in anger some terrible things she thinks of my children. my ...children.

the grandchild grandparent relationship is different its a shame the adults cant see this - i suspect my situation is different becuase my mother doesn't seem to like my children.

i see my mother once every 3 months for half an hour. thats more than enough. i didn't speak to her for 3 years but as the only relative who is left that is able or willing to make sure she isn't dead or stinking out the neighbours with her dead body - then i go to ease my own guilt. remain polite, stand offish hse went to far its not repairable. therefore i go out of duty as the only child.

i do not think that relative or no, you should stand by whilst people treat you disrespectfully.

i know through my own experiences that a mother weilds an enourmous power until death. i am aware of my power as a mother. and becuase of my mothers actions i intend to just be there. i will never become involved in a marriage dispute, but my children can always come home i will never overtly take sides. i will not dispense parenting advice unless specifically asked. i hope to always be a haven for my children but not their sheild or protector when they reach adulthood.

my dad died when i was small. so i am aware of the life is too short argument.

life is too short to be paralysed with fear or guilt or worry from anyone.

my family is my children and my husband. ANYONE else is secondary. i hope to treat people well until they treat me poorly. that includes extended family.

when my children enter into a long term relationship. i too expect to be secondary.

this is turning into an essay that no - one will read but i am an insomniac so i will go on!

the last time i saw my mother was after the lake padarn travels where a mumsnetter -moondog- found a place i had held in my memory since i was 3 or 4 or my dad. it was very special to me. my trip to this place was as i was going to oldham for a family christening. on entering my mothers house we is foreer the gracious host offering a drink etc etc my daughter followed behind.

"who is this " says mother very hurtfully infront of her grandchild - nanna didn't know who i was - she said afterwards quite hurt. it had been 3 years but she hadn't grown a different face and as she was with me - its not a great leap.

on talking about my lovley trip to see the special place she remarked " i grew to hate that bloody place" nice. ta mum

on seeing pictures only of me and dd at this place she came accross one which made me look quite nice " who is that" she said - you get the insinuation.

i drank my coffee after talking about pleasentries and went. i dont want more of that in my life.

so with regards to the OP i would absolutley refuse to get emboiled in famility gossip.

heres another maybe helpful scenario.
we lived on the same street as MIL for years. the partner of her youngest son was fucking the whole estate - and it seemed there was only the son and my mil who didn't know. my husband after seeing youngest bors partner in male toilets fucking a fella - went in complete despair to his mum beucase he felt helpless at a situation where his brother would be very hurt.

the middle brothers partner came to call for coffee one day and relished telling my that MIL called her own son - my DH a liar.

refusing to get dh , children myself engaged in family conversation i said " please don't come here telling me what other people have said, i know the truth, their opinions do not concern me and i dont want them second hand - so don't bother"

and thats what you should say. if any family member says anything at all. refuse to engage. do not fuel the fire. do not give over to emotive wors or discussion which can be relayed back chinese whisper style.

if you dont do that then you may very well enjoy the drama. so remove yourself from it.

spot on custy, we owe our first duty to h and children.
is this a first for cam? sorry cam! you obviously feel very strongly about this subject.

I went miles to see my parents side of it, but in the end all I could get, over and over again was words to the effect "if you just did what we said, and aren't too successful, then everything will be alright." Its taken me 10 years to break with them. Im not an only child, otherwise I suspect Id be in custy's situation. As it is, Ive got the luxury of moving to another country to get away from them.

Pages, agree you have to detatch yourself emotionally from the gossip and side-taking - easier said than done (and I know you know this already).

I do think it's not a forgone conclusion that your mother will be a negtive influence on your children - assuming that actual child abuse is not the main issue in your case.

I say this only because I have my husband's family example to go on. My mother in law had a cold and maniupltive mother, but all accounts - as soon as Mil was 16 she escaped to nursing college. She had limited contact with her own mother for many years, and during the time she had a son (my dh).

Her mother was selfish and irrational - cocaine and alcohol fueled - and took delight in spending a very big family fortune that she inherited as various members of the family died. She had no thought of keeping it in trust but most importantly (so I am told), she said many cruel things to her daughter and did not act like a loving mother at all. It was all 'me me me'. The money ran out when she was in old age, she was chased by creditors, my inlaws had to step in and do what they could. So the mother/daughter relationship throughout her life was very fraught. For several years I believe my mil and her mother severed all contact.

HOWEVER my mil never prevented my dh from seeing his grandmother - in fact, my dh had a very close relationship with her both as a child and as an adult. He said she was a lovely, warm and attentive grandmother, lavishing attention, love and treats on him. This may have been done to spite her daughter.

I have the utmost respect for my mil for allowing this relationship to continue and can see how it enhanced my dh's life.

I do not know the full details but I do see how the lack of mothering my MIl had from her own mother has affected her - she is very hesitant about 'mothering' me or imposing her ideas on me, and I can see she is damaged by what she had to live through.

As I said, my MIL did sever contact at times but not permanently - I think as her life changed and as her mother's life changed, the decision to see her changed too.

If you do decide to cut your mother out of your life, perhaps see it as the best thing for now, but keep reviewing things.

tigermoth and custy, what fantastic posts.

Sakura is spot on about the fact that it is our mother that makes it the hardest thing. That is why I have put up with being emotionally crushed by my mother (and other members of the family who she gets on side) for such a long time. My older brother has had similar experiences to me and he feels the same as I do.

The main difficulty for me has been that (unlike Greensleeves whose mother's behaviour has been very obviously extreme and unrelenting) with my mother it has been very subtle and intermixed with some very loving and thoughtful behaviour so that you end up very confused about the whole thing. The bad experiences me and my brother have both had, such as years of my stepfathers abuse, were blamed on us for being difficult and the experiences of being ganged up on by the family I have let happen because my mother does have such a hold over me. I internalised it all and believed her, that I must be an awful person to have deserved that treatment. I don't know everything she says about me behind my back, and don't want to, but I know that it is not supportive of who I am and that it makes other family members think badly of me.

You don't seem to understand Cam that when you have been subjected to abuse of any kind (and it is right that it doesn't have to be sexual - verbal abuse can have a similar effect when it is from someone in a position of authority over you) you CAN'T grow up and be who you truly are while you continue to subject yourself to that kind of manipulation. It is only now that I have stood up to my mother and told her I am not going to take it any more that I can move on and start rebuilding my self-esteem.

You seem also to be missing the point Cam that I have tried endlessly to try and get my mother to see how damaging her behaviour has been and to try and deal with things in a more honest and open way. I want an apology from her not because I have a need to be right but because I need her to take it back. I am not going to carry on being used as the family trash can. I am definitely taking a step back as virtually everyone has advised but cutting her out will be the last resort. Clearly she has options open to her if she wants to maintain a relationship with me. And if either of my children ever has any issues like this with me I know that I would go to the ends of the earth to keep them.

I am actually trying to unite my family by putting the issues out on the table to be dealt with. My mum is refusing to talk about any of this. She doesn't like things out in the open and she doesn't actually want a united family. It's not the ways she does things.

Ultimately if I have to walk away, I will, as Greensleeves has done. But please don't keep trying to suggest Cam that we are silly selfish people who are acting on a whim. My brother has been trying to tell me how he feels for years and I have done what everyone else in the family does, which is to defend my mother. But this issue of her blaming me for something she has done whilst happeneing in the present day is historic and I have finally had enough. How can I protect my children from anything in life if I don't first start protecting myself?

If my mother had been brave enough to confront her own mother about the way she was treated then it might have stopped at that generation. Like my brother said to me, it stops here. We are the springboard for our children's futures and we owe it to them not to pass this legacy on to them.

If your opinion Cam is that I should work harder to try and sort things out before cutting my mother out that is a valid opinion and I wouldn't have invited all your opinions if I only wanted to hear one kind of answer. But telling people to grow up is not helpful or clever, nor is judging anyone who has already made the very difficult decision to cut their mother out in the best interests of their family.

And yes, thanks, Tigermoth and Custy. That is the point - it passes on and on unless you stop it.

There's an important point there Pages re protecting yourself in order to protect your kids.

We as parents are the main teachers to our children in what comprises a healthy relationship and how to deal with it when its not. If we put up with things and this becomes visible (and as we all know kids pick up everything) then that's what we're teaching our kids is acceptable in a relationship.

By making the difficult decisions (and they are difficult) we are showing that there are certain behaviours out there totally unacceptable regardless of who is perpertrating it and hopefully showing our kids that they are the owners of their relationships and they will only be treated a certain way as long as they allow it. Phew!!!!!!

And - I repeat - I did say in the beginning that I wouldn't stop her seeing the children. That is not an issue, although I can see that it is for others - and respect their reasons and decision.

exactly pages,
if your mother had stood up to her mother, the way you are doing to yours now, the cycle may not have perpetuated through to your generation.
you simply cannot let this go through you to your kids and recognizing that your mother is wrong and not forgiving her again and again is one way to stop it. you really are doing the best by your kids.
its true that you can t protect your own family unless you are strong yourself. in my case, cutting contact with her is one way of allowing me to build my personality.
oh, and you are really lucky to have that brother of yours. you can both nurture that friendship, and have a deeper relationship than maybe you could have ever had without your mother s craziness.

Pages, I have not read all of this thread but I have "cut" my mother out of my life....(it is never a short story is it?!) and the feeling of wondering if it is the right thing will always come up, there will always be people in this world that think that they have the right to say "life is too short, you need to forgive and forget , what about the grandchildren" etc etc (Mine do not see my mother, through my choice) But you need to do what is right to protect yourself. A relationship, in my eyes, is not worth having if it entails more pain than love. For me, a parent and child relationship should not be unconditional in terms of love. But there will always be people who disagree.
I think I have mostly worked through the guilt of choosing not to have contact, but it does come up now and again, and it is the easier price to pay , I feel.
Maybe, a few years apart will make you feel differently and you might have the strength to try again, whatever decision you make does not have to be forever....people DO change as they get older, question is, whether they change enough to make the relationship workable.
Good luck with whatever deicsion you make, and remember that there are others in your boat, you are not alone at sea!!!

Yes, Counttoten, that' really important. And this all started because I needed to sort out (in the open)who feels unconcomfortable around my child. I didn't go into detail in my initial post but the row with my brother was (to cut a long story very short) due to my DS being left out when organising a family outing (because of his SN)and I know what it feels like to be rejected within the family and I am NOT going to let that happen to DS1. I can't protect him from negative reactions from everyone in life but I can protect him from those reactions from people who are supposed to love him.

Thanks guys, and yes, my older brother and I have both agreed that our newfound relationship (as well as respect for ourselves) is the best thing to have come out of all of this. It is wonderful to have someone in the family listen to and respect my feelings at last and I know he feels the same.

Pages - just wanted to say well done to you. You've obviously thought about this long and hard - it's not easy to draw back from a situation where people you love are hurting you but sometimes it's for the best for many reasons but the most important being your little one. How can we expect them to develop self-respect if we let ourselves be treated like doormats. Yes it makes us look unreasonable (I'm aware that I'm the wicked witch of the west in mine and my DH's family) but you know what - who really gives a monkeys what they think!! I think you're doing brillantly - who knows this might be the shock your Mum needs to realise that you being her daughter doesn't give her the right to treat you like any less of a human being than anyone else she might come across. I'm a great believer in the saying "you deserve what you tolerate" and although I might be lambasted for saying this, I don't think you have to tolerate bad behaviour no matter where/who it comes from. (phew - rant over!!)

Well said!!

Congratulation pages on having the courage to make this difficult decsion. You have obviously thought long and hard about and are also big hearted enough to keep your children out of the equation at the moment (depsite the fact that they were indirectly involved in the issues coming to a head).

What comes across is your profound sense of loss at the relationship "that should have been". However, as you have worked out, you can't change the way your mother interacts with you or other memebers of the family. What you can control is how you choose to react with them.

I have a good relationship with my mum - and yet....... despite my mother's (and my father's) best efforts, the toxic relationship that she had with her mother has had an on-going impact across the generations.

Her parents (and in particular her mother) try to interefre to the extent that when my mum and dad were moving a long way away, they weren't going to tell them when and where they were moving, as they were afriad of whwat my grandparents might do. (They did finally agree to meet and say goodbye when a neighbour/close frined personally vouched that she would ensure that nothing would happen).

It has manifested in a number of subtle ways, bu the most obvious one is that my parents are paranoid about interfering - to the extent that they are missing out on ds growing up. They take the "let the children get on with things" indendence to extremes. They are always there if you ask for help - but we awlays have to ask for help.

We've even talked to them about this - and have even told them that, as result of certain things about the way I was brought up (not bad, but they did have an impact), I am almost incapable of asking for help. (This has actually also had an impact at work, as I find delegating/asking fro help really difficult). I have to be practically drowning before I ask for help. But they still wait for us to ask them to look after ds and for any other help.

Interstingly, in a parallel with your own story, my mum alwys said that her MIL was her favourite relative - and my granny (my dad's mum) was a very special lady.

It was sad for my mum that as a result of her parents'(in particular her mother's) actions, the relationship between the three sbilings (my mum, her brother and her sisiter) was strained and has never fully recovered.

I hope your dh is being supportive to you during this difficult time. He is your family now. it's great that yuo are now also getting on better with your elder brother. These are the people that are important for you, now and for the future - and for your kids.

{{{{Hugs}}}}}

Cash n carry, I like that saying too or (quoting Susan Sarandon in Thelma and Louise "You get what you settle for!" I also think that as an adult you reap what you sow. (Although sometimes you reap things you haven't sown at all - sometimes bad things just happen to nice people)

Prettybird, thanks for your kind words. I am feeling the loss of the relationship with my mother, and you brought a tear to my eye, because it's true - I think I always have been. Her negative impact on my life has been insiduous and we have only been close at the times when I have been behaving exactly as she would wish. I have doubted myself on occasion throughout all this when I have remembered i.e. how she bought me some nice presents and made my garden look lovely when I came home from hospital after having DS2 but I then have to remember that even all the nice things she has done don't counteract the fact that she has also failed to respect my feelings for most of my life.

DH is very supportive. He thinks my mum's behaving atrociously. He has always hated the way she talks about other family members and asked me what I think she says about us. Before all this happened he told me once that she has spent the first half of my life ignoring me and the second half trying to be my big sister. I have always jumped to her defence and it has been a point of contention between me and DH on occasion. I do think she has tried in recent years to make up for the harm she has done but it has been interspersed with her need to bitch about me! She got little attention as a child herself, and I do feel for her for that, but it doesn't mean I should accept her behaviour now. It's almost as if she gets jealous when I am getting a lot of positive attention from anyone, even her!

I am very aware (and my brother keeps telling me this) that I must never resent my children for having what I didn't. I don't think I ever will because I feel the opposite - I want then to have everything that I didn't. I know that facing my own demons is the way forward and thank you all for your generous words of support.

PS Your mum sounds lovely Prettybird but definitely a product of her upbringing.

I am reading all your stories with great interest.

Sounds like your brother really has his head screwed on too Pages! And it is good that you've got your dh by your side too.

Love your children your way and let them make their own choices when they get older. I'm sure they will trun out fine!

Does your mum think that this is all your dh's fault? I know that in my mum's case, they thought it was all my dad's "bad influence" and couldn't conceive the possibility that my mum might actually have a mind of her own. They even tried to accuse him of various horrible things - hence the secrecy about my mum & dad moving away.

Having sai that, my mum never totally broke off contact. They alwys tried to maintain bridges - although it is easier to do so when you are 12,000 miles away!

And the other thing that my mum worked out is that her mother was probably a product of her upbringing, as there seems to be have some strange elements in her family (again - no real contact - another 12,000 miles away). No real proof, but just trying to piece together indirect clues.

Don't get me wrong - I love my mum and dad dearly, and we see them weekly, but sometimes I (and dh!) get frustrated that they continue to see me as "the daughter who copes", even when I'm not.......

Maybe once you've established your independence and soem distance, you can, like one of the other posters, start to creat a new relationship on a different foundation. I like Custy's advice about just refusing to get involved with the gossip - and doing so in a very up-front and open way.

Sorry Custy

You know what I'm like with my different perspective, trying to mother everyone

Prettybird, I don't know if she has tried to blame DH because she never really says anything confrontational directly to me. DH has always been nice to her and they have got on but he worries that she badmouths our DS1 because he hears her criticising my siblings' children. She has always been nice about DH to me until recently. He got into her bad books because he didn't attend a family gathering earlier this year(he had very good reasons) and ruined it for her (apparently). She told me shortly after that she hasn't felt the same about him since. I haven't actually told him that.

dont be sorry Cam, i'm hoping this is just the begginning xxx

Custy, does your DH know his mum called him a liar?