Sleep-sex?

[GollyGosh1]

Have only registered to post this topic after chatting to a friend who is on mn and will probably be reading this, though she won't tell me her 'name'.

Anyway, I was telling my friend how earlier this week I woke in the middle of the night with my husband's fingers all over me, and inside me. Should stress that I'm very happy with him and was very happy for us both to enjoy a sleepy fondle and then, well, go back to sleep! Only the second time this has happened in ten years but it's been fun both times.

Anyway, mentioned this to my friend as thought it was quite funny and was surprised at her response. She felt strongly that I'd been abused (despite being good friends with my husband) on the basis I hadn't consented. We chatted/argued (in a good natured way) for a while and in the end agreed that I'd post this message to see what others thought.

No, what the op made clear was that she enjoyed the touching. He penetrated her without her consent.

Really, it isn't that complicated to understand.

Arousal is different to consent.
A sleeping person cannot consent but it may transpire that they don't mind. Still doesn't mean the h had consent and I think the friend is completely correct to point that out.

To be honest there's something wrong if you can be penetrated without waking up anyway. Of course that would be rape - no question. But surely you'd have to be very drunk or in a coma for that to happen. Most compos mentis people would be woken up by any arousal/intimate caress before penetration happened.

I'm a very deep sleeper YoDiggity, my ex had sex with me on at least two occasions whilst I was asleep and I only woke up when he was already inside me (and had been for some time).

It was a horrible feeling to wake up in the night and have someone inside me. I didn't think at the time that it was rape, looking back it was clear it was. He only had sex with me whilst I was asleep because he knew I wouldn't have slept with him when I was awake as we were going through a very difficult time. He also knew that it was very unlikely that I would wake up.

I sleep like the dead and when my exH buggered me I only woke up when he withdrew. No idea how long he'd been inside me, mind.

Re. sleep and being woken - I have a relative who was subjected to sexual abuse aged about 10, 12. His response (quite a common one psychologically) was to fall asleep. As an adult, he encountered the perpetrator in a hostel dormitory - his immediate, involuntary response was to fall asleep. So those of you saying "but surely penetration would wake you up" are being naive. There are a number of reasons - from extreme knackeredness to do with having small children, through prescription drugs all the way to dissociative reactions to past abuse which might mean you don't wake up.

Also, can we knock this old boring myth on the head - you know, the one that says feminists want all couples to sign consent forms in triplicate in menstrual blood for every sexual encounter? No, we just want to draw attention to the difference between a sexually happy marriage where couples talk about what they like/what makes them uncomfortable - and then respect each other's boundaries - versus an abusive relationship.

This sparks a really interesting debate, which I think was the OP's intention (sorry if I'm wrong in that assumption)

If I may?

Let's assume a couple in a normal, happy, sexual relationship.

Scenario;
Male wakes up and begins intercourse with sleeping female, female wakes and although consent is NOT verbally given she allows penetrative sex to continue to it's conclusion.

Q;
Could she rightly claim that she has been assulted?

Q;
Does this apply if the sex is not penetrative?

yes, both could be assaults if there is no consent.

Seriously, why is this so hard to understand? In that scenario it is not the woman's responsibility to reject sexual advances, it is the man's to ascertain consent. You're really on dangerous ground with your views there. There is no presumption of general consent attributed to being in a LTR either.

Consent must be ascertained each time.

Not necessarily verbally, but there is, legally speaking, a rebuttable presumption that there has been no consent if the person complaining was asleep at the time - because a sleeping person cannot consent.

Yes and Yes.

FFS are there really men around who don't know this stuff?

There are shedloads of rape survivors who decided the best thing to do in order to avoid further violence or even death, was to let it continue.

A sexual assualt doesn't have to involve penetration, but it can include being penetrated by an object or a bodily part other than a penis.

Whereas rape (of men and women) always involves penetration by a penis.

FFS again

"Seriously, why is this so hard to understand?"

Two reasons that i can see. One, the general presumption in society that a man needs sex and a woman must provide it in a LTR whether she really wants to or not. It crops up pretty regulalrlay on MN.

Secondly, if both participants are willing despite consent not being sought initially I would think it is very difficult for both of them to view the encounter as rape/sexual assault, despite that being the case. In an otherwise equal relationship the sudden bombshell that actually one is a rapist and the other a rape victim can be a harsh realsitaion I would think.

Andy, what would your reaction be if you were fast asleep, early hours of the morning and you were woken by your partner shoving a rampant rabbit up your backside?

Oh come on, stop having a go. I agree wholeheartedly.

I'm just encouraging the debate.

So, I agree. In both my cases, even though the woman has allowed a sexual act to take place, to it's conclusion but has not verbally consented to to the sexual act she COULD claim, rightly so, sexual assault.

Now to protect people, I understand that. But if she is vindictive for what ever reason (just go with it for the sake of the debate) she could easily falsely claim that she was assulted.

She has allowed the act to take place even though no verbal consent was given and her partner at the time was under no impression that she was not consenting.

I see that this could swing both ways.

Andy, what would your reaction be if you were fast asleep, early hours of the morning and you were woken by your partner shoving a rampant rabbit up your backside?

PMSL.

Come on Andy think about it - just who the fuck are you to decide you can penetrate someone without having their consent and then tell them they have no right to complain because they didn't actually stop you?

Jesus.

there is no vindictiveness involved in complaining you were raped when someone shoved their penis in you while you were sleeping.

there's no such thing as allowing an assault.

You dont agree and to be frank, there isnt a debate to be had on this issue. The law is very clear

I suggest you listen very carefully and learn about it. Rape, sexual assault and abuse through coercion ruins many women's lives. Some never recover so I think, given this is a board they read and post on for help frequently, you are disgusting beyond belief to be commenting how you are.

Seriously, why is this so hard to understand?

I am presuming that some posters aren't comprehending because they've only personally experienced mutually respectful, consensual and enjoyable sex. They haven't read experienced or read about abusive, coercive sex that's more about power and control than satisfaction and pleasure.

On the other hand, it may just reflect rather worrying opinions about past consensual sex means that you can presume future consent. Or that perhaps it's because you've been married for 10 years. Or that perhaps it can't be rape because you're a Nice Guy who can hear "no" without doling out repercussions.

Threads like this make me so fucking glad I married my DH. I can't believe some men find it difficult to believe that women aren't constantly desperate for their cock. The porn industry has a lot to answer for.

What kind of man wants to have sex with someone who is asleep?! FFS, seriously?

Andy, reread you 13:39 post. You have given a scenario where someone has been sexually assaulted and you have agreed with it. In the next sentence you're saying she's being vindictive by claiming sexual assault. Yet she has been assaulted as you've said?

Can you not see the doublethink?

Very well said offred

her partner at the time was under no impression that she was not consenting.

Well, it's not her responsibility. It's his responsibility to judge that there's enthusiastic consent. Whining "but she didn't stop me" isn't considered good enough.

OK, so we don't want a debate about it.
That's all I was trying to encourage as if you read the OP I think that was the intention, to spark debate about grey areas.

Almost all of you have not read my posts properly so I will again state

I understand consent! If ANYONE says NO, it means NO and I will go further to say NO WITH NO REPRECUSSIONS!

Not sure how much clearer I can make that!

You do not understand consent.

It's not about saying 'No'.

The law changed on that 10 years ago.

FFS.

Again.

Andy1964, what if they don't say 'no' what if they don't try to stop you?

Is that consent?

Not sure what debate is to be had.

Do you want to discuss if its ok to sexually penetrate people who cannot give consent? Children, in a coma, asleep, tied up, too drunk?

The law says it's wrong, thankfully, but go ahead with the debate.

Your spouse's body is not for you to use just because you feel like it, without their input.

Would I be correct in thinking that some rape victims are completely paralysed with fear and are rendered speechless by the assault?