Sleep-sex?

[GollyGosh1]

Have only registered to post this topic after chatting to a friend who is on mn and will probably be reading this, though she won't tell me her 'name'.

Anyway, I was telling my friend how earlier this week I woke in the middle of the night with my husband's fingers all over me, and inside me. Should stress that I'm very happy with him and was very happy for us both to enjoy a sleepy fondle and then, well, go back to sleep! Only the second time this has happened in ten years but it's been fun both times.

Anyway, mentioned this to my friend as thought it was quite funny and was surprised at her response. She felt strongly that I'd been abused (despite being good friends with my husband) on the basis I hadn't consented. We chatted/argued (in a good natured way) for a while and in the end agreed that I'd post this message to see what others thought.

I think il take back the if you consent it's not abuse comment,it doesn't sit right with me.

Of you are happy with this then it's not abuse if he is not forcing it on you...that's better.

That did make laugh. Pork can have a very serious effect on relationships yes.. The arguments we have had over who gets the extra slice!
On a serious note, it doesn't sound like a problem for you at all. I've experienced the same thing occasionally and while I was very happy with my partner it was a nice surprise and I enjoyed it. I'd sometimes do it to him too. Now that we have issues and I need more sleep I'm not so keen and occasionally I have woken up and said no and he has pleaded with me and carried on. I have let him just to get back to sleep and have sometimes enjoyed it and sometimes not, but the fact that he thinks it is ok even if I say no is really pissing me off and may well result in our relationship ending (plus the other issues!) maybe something like this happens or happened to your friend, which is why she thinks of your sleep sex as a bad thing..?
Btw I'm a female, my name gives the impression I'm a man I think.

I totally agree with Yodiggity's post.

YoDiggety.. Totally agree with what you said. That was our sex life when I was happy with him. Spontaneous sec whenever either of us wanted (maybe not in ikea... But you can always try!) when awake, asleep, dozing off etc. No forms to sign giving consent!
My partner obviously doesn't think anything has changed so is still as amorous as ever. But I have told him I don't like being woken up in the middle of the night anymore because I can't get back to sleep but he keeps doing it.
I think I need to discuss this with him so thanks OP for bringing this up!
The pork comment in my previous response was a reply to something up the thread. How do you reply directly to a message so it comes out directly underneath?

I don't think anyone has said here, actually I don't think anyone has ever said on any thread, that consent has to be verbal to be valid. Seduction is asking consent, with physical rather than verbal communication. That's fine, if both are happy with this; which you can tell by the way they respond to each other's moves. The difference with a long-term relationship is that the couple presumably know each other very well by now, including body language, what turns them on and when they are likely to be up for it. It means that they know and respect their partner's boundaries and fit (hopefully) comfortably around them. They trust each other well enough to agree to an ongoing state of consent to certain things which can be withdrawn at any time by either partner (this is vital).

Were the OP to have said no to sex earlier in the evening and then woken to find her husband having a go anyway, even if she enjoyed it, that is not right and is the thin end of the wedge because he has failed to observe her stated lack of consent. As she didn't say anything beforehand, he gave it a go and she responded positively, all's fine, nobody's worried, nobody's encroached upon, nothing to see here.

However, I do see where the OP's friend is coming from, as if she had not been happy with it he would already have done a fair bit of poking before she woke up enough to say no thanks. During that time he would have been unaware of whether she was, or was going to be, willing. In the context of the OP's relationship as she describes it this would not appear to be a big deal, but it certainly could be.

Charlie, you can't place a message where you want to unfortunately, you just have to refer back to the one you're talking about.

So people that agree with yodiggity agree that all sex usually starts with a snog and that you would know if you had been sexually assaulted? What a load of shite. My ex once groped me when I was asleep but I didn't know it was sexual assault until I came on mumsnet a few years later. Just because I didn't verbally say no to my ex doesn't mean it was consensual. As I was asleep when he started touching me how the fuck could I have said no? Different to the ops situation but yodiggity seems to be suggesting its always ok for one partner to start groping the other and check for consent afterwards. Not a good message that "we are all capable of saying no".

It's a difficult area because of the consent issue. He can't really get your consent when you're asleep. So some people, understandably, feel quite horrified by the idea and would consider it rape. And, of course, if the recipient was not happy about the situation then it would be.

However I think it's different in your situation, in that you like it and find it a nice thing and so for that reason it's fine - there is a sort of "prior consent" there. As long as the agreement continues to be happy for both of you, then carry on - but be aware that in another relationship it might not be such a nice thing. There are threads here sometimes describing my first paragraph and the occasional person comes on and says "We do this all the time, I think it's nice!" and is really shocked by it. Totally different situation - not related at all.

There is always a preamble to sex and opportunity for one partner to indicate "no thanks". Presumably it was an uninvited preamble but if you are happy to go along with it, that's then consenting sex from that point, irrespective of whether you were asleep when it started or not. It's rape if the preamble is rejected but then sex is forced.

This was not abuse, OP was totally fine with it, has said she thinks it's nice and that her dh would have stopped if she'd asked him to.
Sometimes when my DH is half asleep he does this, if I don't want sex I push him away and say so. He stops. Mostly I reciprocate and actually really enjoy sleepy sex. It's only an issue if op doesn't want him to do it and he does it anyway.
Why did it you discuss with your friend if it's a non issue though op? I'd be really embarrassed if dh discussed our sex life with his mates.

Charlie, occasionally I have woken up and said no and he has pleaded with me and carried on. I have let him just to get back to sleep and have sometimes enjoyed it and sometimes not, but the fact that he thinks it is ok even if I say no is really pissing me off

Carrying on to have sex with you when you have said no and not given consent is not ok. What do you think would happen if you carried on saying no and making your point stronger (i.e. not allowing him to have sex with you for a quiet life)?

Yodiggity if you read enough around this issue you will find a lot of women do not realise that what they are experiencing in their relationships is actually sexual abuse. Rapists can be subtle and it can end up with such a twisted relationship that the abused can feel unable to say no.

The op is obviously happy with what happened while her friend would not be. That's fine as long as their respective partners know how things stand too.

Teoandsophie Sex in a happy, trusting marriage is not about consent

Really? Your partner could have sex with you against your wishes because he is your husband?

It's rape if the preamble is rejected but then sex is forced.

I would take issue with that as a bald statement; the preamble doesn't have to be actively rejected for it to qualify under the law as rape. When, for example, a woman is out of it due to excessive drinking or taking sleeping pills, sex taking place at that time cannot possibly be consensual. She won't reject it because she can't. It most certainly is rape then. Whether, on waking, she decides she didn't really mind, does not alter the fact that that is technically what it was. She doesn't have to "feel raped" either. Non-consensual sex took place. If she doesn't feel badly about it and doesn't want to report it, that's her choice, but the law is there to protect her (in theory!). There is no way the OP would report it because to her it wasn't a problem, and as I said above, a loving partner who knows her well would be reasonably confident that it would be well received, otherwise he wouldn't even have started.

Annie in defence of the OP sleepy sex is probably not sex with someone so out of it they can't give consent.

I say probably because somebody on the thread has described a colleague who can sleep through someone having sex with her.

OP the long and the short of it is, it's fine, lots of couples do it, (DP would like me to wake him like that more often!), it's only a problem if you feel it's a problem.

Fine if you were OK with it, OP, but what if you hadn't been? He would have penetrated you already with his fingers before you had the opportunity to say you didn't want it.

Had you given him express permission to have sex with you while you were still asleep?

It's different to gently caress, in a non-penetrative way to get you on the mood, or wake you up, from actually penetrating, even with fingers.

Personally, I hate being awaken for whatever reason. And would be pissed off regardless of motive. But that is a different matter.

And, Charlie, any man who pesters you for sex until you say yes so that you can go back to sleep is waving a massive red flag. :(

OP, tell your OH whether or not you are happy for him to do it again.
But ask yourself and him why he thought it was ok to go ahead with it when you were asleep and unable to give consent.

You see, OP, what you describe sounds lovely because you are happy and enjoy it. It's when people don't want to but feel they have to because they are married to them/drunk/in bed naked etc. I have to say the person who said their colleague 'lets' her husband have full intercourse as long as he doesn't wake her up fills me with deep depression. To me that is everything sex shouldn't be.

My ex used to do this, even though he knew from discussions we had whilst both awake that I am not someone who wants to be woken in the night that way. In contrast you have no issue with it op so it's fine.

I think part of the problem is that it's possible for your body to start to respond physically to the touch, because you are asleep, even if you have already asserted previously whilst conscious that you don't want sex. This then makes it harder to recognise what's happening as wrong, even if you do push them off and try to move away but they carry on.

I'm surprised she can sleep through full intercourse!

It is obviously different for everyone. In my happy, loving marriage, I would be fucking livid if my husband did that - this is probably the opinion of your friend. You feel differently, fine. Some people accept behaviour like this even though they're not 100% comfortable with it and this is venturing into abuse territory.

And some people 'accept' behaviour like this when they are 100% happy with it. That needs to be said too.

I suppose with my wife, I'd have to just put it down to being a bit inconsiderate. She'd obviously had a dirty dream and decided to wake me up by messing with me. I was wide awake afterwards so had a long day at work with only 3 hours sleep. I told her it's best she doesn't do that anymore because I work with machinery and was nodding off at work. A couple of weeks later, she did the same thing again.

Oh dear, must stop waking up my husband with a blow job then as that's clearly me abusing him. Never thought if myself as an abuser

....oh hang on, I'm not! He likes it, I like being pleasured by him too. He could tell me to leave it to later as he wants his sleep, I could do the same.

Even when awake, we might kiss and I don't ask if I can play with his cock, he'll go from kissing to being intimate without asking.

When in a living sexual relationship, we don't ask ever step of the way. Likewise just because I've enjoyed giving blow jobs or whatever doesn't mean that always has to be on the menu at any time and he won't be offended if I don't want to.

To apply judgements of abusive relationships to living consensual ones is understandable if you've been abused but it's ludicrous to the rest of us who really don't have issue with our partners.