Sleep-sex?

[GollyGosh1]

Have only registered to post this topic after chatting to a friend who is on mn and will probably be reading this, though she won't tell me her 'name'.

Anyway, I was telling my friend how earlier this week I woke in the middle of the night with my husband's fingers all over me, and inside me. Should stress that I'm very happy with him and was very happy for us both to enjoy a sleepy fondle and then, well, go back to sleep! Only the second time this has happened in ten years but it's been fun both times.

Anyway, mentioned this to my friend as thought it was quite funny and was surprised at her response. She felt strongly that I'd been abused (despite being good friends with my husband) on the basis I hadn't consented. We chatted/argued (in a good natured way) for a while and in the end agreed that I'd post this message to see what others thought.

"Her friend has no problems with sex. She has boundaries"

That friend was criticising the OP's boundaries, not maintaing her own. That friend is someone with issues IMO.

The friend felt rightly that the OP had been abused. This was because the husband wasn't really sure the OP would have appreciated it.
She may have had when she woke up, but she was still being penetrated without consent.

The last time it had happened was years ago and there was never any specific consent to do it. The husband was not to know if it was ok or not.
The next time he does it, she may not have wanted sex. She may be pissed off with him, or want to sleep.

Regardless of how the OP saw it, I'd definitely see it as a yellow flag.

It is fine to be ok with it, but it's not fine to do it without a guarantee that the other person will want it.

And the friend's opinion it's still not about having problems. She has problems with lack of consent in sex. Very different, and very healthy, IMO:

Lweji do you usually go around accusing your friends' partners of being abusive for indulging in sexual practices that you don't like, when both people in that relationship make it clear they enjoy that practice?

I'd argue that anyone who did that has got issues.

It's not about liking the sex or not, it's about lack of consent.

It could be the most vanilla sex you can think of, but if there is no consent, it's wrong.

I have no problems with S&M, swinging, whatever you think about, just as long it is consensual.

That is the problem for the friend, not the sex itself.

Spanking, for example. Fine if you are happy with it, and you said yes to it or at least to the overall environment where it happens and you don't say the safe word.

If not, it's DV.

Yes, exactly. It is the consent. An unconscious person cannot consent however it is recognised that many couples enjoy sleepy sex. That is why there is a rebuttable presumption that being asleep means you can't consent.

Someone who penetrates a sleeping person is taking the risk that person will feel violated because they haven't had opportunity to consent not because they may not enjoy it.

im ok with it as long as they stop if/when asked or if it appears unwelcome, or if there is any sign that it wouldnt be appreciated, such as previously making this clear.

For most people that have this in a relationship, im sure there is implied consent with previous night time touching etc, without sex, and then it leading to it.

Some of you? Really??

I shall employ the serviced of a solicitor next time I want sex with my DW.
I wouldn't want to be accused of having non consensual sex with her and ensuring that all the legal documentation is in place would seem the safest bet.

Andy dear - maybe you should read the legal documentation about rape and what it means before you come on goading about the right to penetrate your wife without clear consent. Which as you will find when you read the said documentation, you cannot gain while someone is unconscious, e.g. asleep. HTH.

If you want to have sex with her while she is asleep I'd recommend a psychiatrist for you and a solicitor for her.

If she's awake she'll be able to say (or act) yes or no. Easy.

Surely it's not that complicated to understand.

Meant for Andy, of course.

And what is super interesting about Andy's post is what exactly would you put in the legal documentation to ensure a DW's consent?

The statement appears to show a total lack of understanding about the fluidity of consent. It's depressingly predictable.

Sensible post Yodiggity!

Andy;

sex - mutually consenting sexual activity

rape - sex without consent

Please try applying logic as well as emotion. If you begin sexual activity with someone whilst they are sleeping you have not gained their consent. It may work out ok if that person wakes and responds positively, however, even with previous consent/discussion you are still performing sexual activity without consent at the time and are taking the risk of being justifiably accused of assault. People wishing to indulge in this kind of sex must understand these distinctions. Part of the attraction of this kind of sex is the pushing boundaries aspect so very comparable to S&M but also very necesary to behave responsibly about it and take responsibility for it.

S&M is usually an assault anyway btw according to the law as the principle is that violence cannot be consented to for the purposes of sexual satisfaction even if it is your own.

Well if consent means him saying 'would you like to have sex now?' followed by me saying 'yes please' out loud then I think I have been raped approximately 98% of the time I've ever had sex, according to some of you.

Number of times I consider myself raped? Zero.

consent means consent. Not necessarily asking verbally or in writing(!) for permission as some people have ridiculously suggested but by ensuring your partner is conscious and able to consent and a willing participant.

Really, it isn't that difficult. Not sure why anyone is so keen to argue in favour of the concept of penetrating a sleeping partner.

Yawn.

Fortunatley I'm lucky enough to
a) have a very active sex life with my DW and I am 100% sure that there would be no complaints if I was to wake her up in the act.
b) Have a very sexually active wife who would not think twice about doing the same thing to me.

We have actually done this on several occasions and neither of us asked each others consent so I guess we should both be put away for rape. Maybe we will get a joint cell?

Whilst my comments are flippant, they are meant to be, I do appreciate that where sex is non consensual then the full force of the law should be bought to bear.

I am also respectful enough that if my wife says no, it means no, immediatley, with no reprecussions.

If you have sexual consent issues in a stable marriage/relationship then may I so boldly suggest that you married the wrong person.

Get off of ya high horses!

I'm in a BDSM relationship currently btw. Currently covered in big bruises from being bitten and have played out rape fantasies including being woken violently in the middle of the night. Considerably 'worse' than the op's description on the face of it but all of it with very carefully negotiated boundaries and discussions around consent. Self awareness surrounding each of our motivations and understanding of our respective sexualities. That's what is missing from the op's description. We discuss anything we do before we do it, there are rules. I know, when falling asleep, what is going to happen. He doesn't just stick his fingers in me while I sleep.

Andy - how does someone say no to penetration that has already occurred? That's my point. Why go so far as penetrating a sleeping person.

Also, you cannot be 100% sure your wife will not complain/is comfortable. By the very nature of the situation you cannot be sure. Surely that is part of the excitement.

To be honest there's something wrong if you can be penetrated without waking up anyway. Of course that would be rape - no question. But surely you'd have to be very drunk or in a coma for that to happen. Most compos mentis people would be woken up by any arousal/intimate caress before penetration happened.

And some people on this thread have said quite categorically that consent should be always be verbal, and that you should not assume by someone's physical reaction that they give consent.

I think that is a very dangerous statement. It allows anyone to engage fully in sex and enjoy it, and orgasm 5 times, and then afterward go 'Nuh uh, change my mind, because you didn't ask the question and I didn't give the answer I am now accusing you of rape.'

Of course it's a very unlikely scenario but even so, there is a very obvious flaw in the logic there.

That isnt what they said though about verbal permission. What was said is that physical arousal in someone who is asleep or unconscious is not an indicator of consent, which it isnt. If you stimulate the clitoris of a sleeping woman she'll get wet, it doesnt infer that she is consenting to either that stimulation or penetration.

Tis well known that it is possible to penetrate someone without them waking, that is in fact the basic premise of this post. That the op woke up with her dh's fingers inside her.

The scenario you describe would not technically be rape because to be rape the perpetrator must not reasonably believe they have ascertained consent.

Hmm. It's a bit rude I suppose but if he'd stop if you asked I wouldn't class it as abuse.

I'm a bit biased towards this sort of thing because on two occasions exH buggered me while I slept. If only MN had been around at the time; I'd have done my damnedest to have the fucker arrested.

"Yes, exactly. It is the consent"

Which the OP made clear was there, whereas the "friend" kept on banging on about abuse, long after it was clear there wasn't any.

OPs friend has issues, definitely.