Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Sleep-sex?

238 replies

GollyGosh1 · 22/12/2013 00:05

Have only registered to post this topic after chatting to a friend who is on mn and will probably be reading this, though she won't tell me her 'name'.

Anyway, I was telling my friend how earlier this week I woke in the middle of the night with my husband's fingers all over me, and inside me. Should stress that I'm very happy with him and was very happy for us both to enjoy a sleepy fondle and then, well, go back to sleep! Only the second time this has happened in ten years but it's been fun both times.

Anyway, mentioned this to my friend as thought it was quite funny and was surprised at her response. She felt strongly that I'd been abused (despite being good friends with my husband) on the basis I hadn't consented. We chatted/argued (in a good natured way) for a while and in the end agreed that I'd post this message to see what others thought.

OP posts:
neiljames77 · 22/12/2013 11:54

I wasn't comparing it to or suggesting it was abuse Joysmum. I wouldn't do that. I obviously enjoyed it at the time but it's 3 in the morning and I couldn't get back to sleep.

JumpingJackSprat · 22/12/2013 12:04

gettingeasiernow would you feel it wasn't rape/sexual assault if the assaulter was a stranger?

f someone is asleep and someone else touches them sexually without prior consent it is sexual assault. If they then pentrate them it is rape. If someone is asleep then they are not capable of giving consent despite what you say. If they have previously said they are happy to be woken up in this way that's one thing. To say that there is always a preamble and an opportunity to say no is ridiculous when we are taking about people being asleep. I never discussed with my ex whether he could do what he did. I didn't give my consent. Ergo, it is sexual assault.

ProfessorDent · 22/12/2013 12:44

Oh come off it. I mean, when charmer George Galloway advises that 'permission isn't needed prior to every insertion' regarding the rape charge of Julian Assanges, well, it's gross largely because that was a one-night stand situation, or new 'relationship'. It is a tad different between lovers of many years' standing (or lying down) you are supposed to instinctively know each other well enough to see what is or is not off limits. And again, it depends on the nature of each person involved.

Not sure it's 'sleepy sex' isn't it called 'wake up sex'? Like in that Sexual Healing song.

Vivacia · 22/12/2013 12:49

I think that there's a difference between being woken by someone nuzzling your neck, stroking your belly etc and being woken because someone has penetrated you with his fingers or penis.

ProfessorDent · 22/12/2013 12:56

It would in my case, but then I'm a bloke. Yeah, I'd be most put out.

Anniegetyourgun · 22/12/2013 12:57

I agree with you, Vivacia. It's gentle waking stuff to check whether they're up for it, aka asking permission (non-verbally) - giving them a chance to show whether they're interested before taking it further. Getting stuck in first and asking questions afterwards is thoughtless at best and we've already said what it is at worst.

Leavenheath · 22/12/2013 13:33

It's so frustrating to see idiotic posts that trivialise what is an important issue - consent.

I'm guessing that quite a few of these posters frothing about written signatures and their own rules in their own relationships weren't here when Mumsnet launched the I Believe You campaign.

And bollocks to the usual inference that the only posters raising the consent issue have been in abusive relationships Angry. You don't have to have been in an abusive relationship to understand consent. I've never been anywhere near an abusive relationship, but I understand what constitutes consent and in fact put forward the opposite argument; posters who are in loving consensual relationships are often better placed to spot abusive ones, because what they are reading is so outside of their norm that alarm bells go off.

Lweji · 22/12/2013 13:43

Even in the best of relationships, and unless prior consent had been given, it is not OK to assume that the other person will be up for sex when we want it.
In every relationship there will be a time when one of the people are not up for sex and will say so.
Taking away their option to say no is abusive, yes. (unless they have previously said they like being awaken with full sex going on)
Even waking people up when they are soundly asleep, IMO, is not on just because we feel like it. I wouldn't do it to a partner or anyone else.

It has nothing to do with being or not in abusive relationships.

ProfessorDent · 22/12/2013 15:03

I do feel there is a bit of a trend of MN to start these slight wind-up threads, I don't mean to be rude but I'm not sure what the OP was hoping to gain from all this; if she had objected and her bloke was saying, hey, what's the big deal and saying everyone in married life does this, shut up, then you might have a thread.

If MN was around in medieval times, there would be some young frisky maiden going up to the chief matriarch in the village, saying 'Oh Mother, I have a question. I realise sex is for procreation only, but my husband and I enjoy having sex for the sheer enjoyment of it, we love it! Is that wrong?' And the old hag would frown and say 'Child, the Bible expressly forbids such a thing! We shall see about this!' Forward to final scene where her husband is tired to a pyre about to be torched.

Obviously there are some relationships where this kind of thing would be off limits, where the balance of power is a certain way and you don't cross that line. Where the line is depends on the mutual attitude of both partners. There is also I guess a kind of positive physical response that a woman can give off even if half asleep to suggest it is alright to proceed. But I admit that while what I am writing is sort of true imo, the only written response one feels comfortable with on the internet, is 'No, that's wholly wrong'. It's only going to go one way.

ProfessorDent · 22/12/2013 15:04

However, I should add that if someone is dead to the world i.e. completely asleep then it is a bit of a no no, no matter how well you know each other after many years.

Lweji · 22/12/2013 15:17

Not sure how enjoying sex and medieval times fit in in a thread about sexual consent. Hmm

And also not sure what it has to do with balance of power. WTF?

Lweji · 22/12/2013 15:23

In fact, if you were implying that in more progressive times it will be ok for the husband to start sex while his wife is still asleep, I think you'll find it's quite the opposite.
It a good sign of the progression of times that it is now considered that sex should be consensual for all parties, that husbands have no "right to sex", and that having sex with a person who cannot give consent (asleep, drunk or whatever) is in fact rape.

Your point about "enjoying" while asleep or half asleep is also not valid because it does not mean that the person would feel the same if awake. The appearance of enjoyment is only physical and consenting to sex is not a physical reflex.

ProfessorDent · 22/12/2013 15:32

Hmm, think I'll give up on this thread, it is too open to misunderstanding, but that's almost why I feel the OP was on a hiding to nothing on this.

Guess I'm saying if two people think it is okay then it okay, and if one of them doesn't then it isn't. I suppose in this case it is retrospective consent, I do feel it is a bit of feeling your way however...

It would not be more progressive for a husband to start sex while his wife is asleep, just saying that in this case the OP says there's no problem and she enjoys it (and bear in mind we have other threads where women are talking of peremptorily dumping their new lover cos he can't get it up a few times) then we have a bunch of people saying how dare you, there clearly is. I mean, why go looking for a problem when in this instance it isn't seen to be one (by the OP).

Lweji · 22/12/2013 15:43

Everyone in this thread said it's ok if you enjoy it. Where people disagree is about retrospective consent. It's not ok to find out afterwards if it was ok. Only if you knew it would be ok.
If you want to proceed with your wife without knowing previously she will be up for it, you risk her considering it rape. Because without that certainty, it would actually be.

JumpingJackSprat · 22/12/2013 16:10

Wtf is the medieval stuff about? And a physical response does not equal consent. Sad that attitudes like this are so prevalent.

Vivacia · 22/12/2013 16:13

I'm not sure what the OP was hoping to gain from all this

I completely understand why she started the thread. MN has opened my eyes to lots of issues around relationships that I hadn't thought about before. I can understand that talking to another poster could prompt thoughts and questions in exactly the same way.

So in this example, the OP likes something and has a good experience of it. She hasn't thought about the wider implications of it in other kinds of relationships. To learn more she starts a thread.

Vivacia · 22/12/2013 16:13

The medieval stuff fits in with the comet in the star analogy he's just written on the porn thread too. Fuck knows.

BoyMeetsWorld · 22/12/2013 16:21

I think if your in a v happy relationship & your hubby knows you wouldn't mind (whether it's been explicitly stated or not) its fine. DH & I do this sometimes too & both rather like it. As long as you know DH would stop instantly if he could tell you aren't happy, all fine

arsenaltilidie · 22/12/2013 18:12

The Op is not being abused.

I think the other posters' messages are directed at other women readers who might be in abusive relationships but not realise it.
If you are not happy with it AND told your partner then it's Abuse.
Otherswise it's not abuse.

ALittleBitOfChristmasMagic · 22/12/2013 19:33

Dh and I wake each other up like this sometimes . Usually he does it to me - but he always stops if I don't wake up , or wake up but don't respond . I agree with you op and think it's a nice thing when your too tired at night to get quality time it's nice to be waking up during the night . Usually regret it when I have to get up at 6.45am though !!GrinGrin

tiamariaxxx · 22/12/2013 23:56

OMG if my hubbys anything to go by he wont even know hes doing it lol, i wake up most nights to him with his hard on in my back thrusting at me, i just give him a bit of a shake and he wakes up wondering whats up lol. On other occasions when were spooning asleep cuddld up together his hands wonder, sometimes i leave him to it or if i cba or struggling to sleep ill just push him away.

There are also other occasions he is fully awake if hes been to the toilet or something and he will wake me up for sex usually by touching and kissing me unless im tired i arent botherd after all its the only time we get some alone time, ive woke to find him 4 times down on me :):) Such a nice wake up call!!

I often go to bed after him and when i get in i always cuddle upto him often reaching for his privates. At the end of the day we are married, sharing a bed etc its good to have that closeness its not like its abusive or domineering or anything

Lazyjaney · 23/12/2013 08:09

"it's only a problem if you feel it's a problem"

Spot On.

Sounds to me it's more likely the OPs friend that has problems with sex.

Lweji · 23/12/2013 08:19

That is an extremely crass statement, janey.

Her friend has no problems with sex. She has boundaries.

It's not having problems with sex if you don't want to be penetrated while you are asleep or wake up to penetration. Hmm

Fine if you enjoy it, but it's also very much fine if you don't.

While, it's very wrong to do it without being 100% sure the person asleep enjoys it. That's what I'd all having problems with sex.

Lweji · 23/12/2013 08:21

ups,
That's what I'd say is having problems with sex.

Offred · 23/12/2013 08:24

I don't think the op's friend has problems with sex. I think I'd also be concerned if a friend told me her husband was penetrating her whilst she was asleep.

Whilst I think it is quite normal and nice when you're in a relationship to begin sex whilst one or both of you are sleepy I think penetrating someone is unacceptable. That's why the "bloke" earlier was saying he'd properly freak out, because consenting to penetration is quite important - men's bodies are not more important than women's.

It is also a fact that you can't base consent on having had it previously.

You absolutely need to have conscious consent for penetration and really also for groping.

I enjoy sleepy sex but this is different to sleep sex. When I've woken up my partner or he's woken me each of us has begun with cuddling and gentle stroking until the other was awake enough to consciously progress if it was wanted. I don't see why penetrating a sleeping person is ever acceptable.

If the op enjoyed it then I think it is a case of no harm done this time but I do think I would be concerned about sleeping in the same bed with someone who demonstrably didn't care about having my consent.