Sleep-sex?

[GollyGosh1]

Have only registered to post this topic after chatting to a friend who is on mn and will probably be reading this, though she won't tell me her 'name'.

Anyway, I was telling my friend how earlier this week I woke in the middle of the night with my husband's fingers all over me, and inside me. Should stress that I'm very happy with him and was very happy for us both to enjoy a sleepy fondle and then, well, go back to sleep! Only the second time this has happened in ten years but it's been fun both times.

Anyway, mentioned this to my friend as thought it was quite funny and was surprised at her response. She felt strongly that I'd been abused (despite being good friends with my husband) on the basis I hadn't consented. We chatted/argued (in a good natured way) for a while and in the end agreed that I'd post this message to see what others thought.

I would find having fingers or penis inserted while I sleep very painful indeed. Contrary to some men's perception, women's vaginas are not in a permanent state of ready reception of a foreign object.

I never thought of it as a rape fantasy before, needless to say that is not how it was sold to me. It was supposedly a demonstration of my trust.

Btw we split up due to other more overt sexual abuse, I just never really had a handle on whether or not he was being abusive with this sleep stuff.

I think it wasn't a Rape fantasy in your case, it was a fantasy about raping you.

Okay, suppose a bloke woke up because his girlfriend was giving him a blow job? Would that be abuse too?

It was supposedly a demonstration of my trust.

That's really fucked up IMO.

Trust is about the other person being truthful to you and not doing anything to you without your consent.

Even without being sexual, how would he feel if you shaved his hair, or pubic hair, or died it, or pierced parts of his body without his previous consent?

If you enjoy being awaken by being penetrated and your partner knows this, it's fine.
If you say you don't like it, you don't have to allow it just to demonstrate you trust them. Or accept that they do it. Because by doing it even though you didn't consent, they are showing you they can't be trusted. And that takes the relationship way out of a trusting and loving one.

Yes, Prof., unless he had made it obvious that he'd like to be awaken by one.

You, prof., might like it. Another man might not, like a bloke upthread who said he needed his sleep and his wife did it again in spite of him telling her not to.

Sorry to not understand, but then what's the difference between a rape fantasy and a fantasy about raping?

I think it's if the woman voices it, it's a rape fantasy. If the man voices it, it's a fantasy about raping?

Matilda, I think what Offred said was that he fantasised about raping you.

Rape fantasies are just that. Fantasies. I'm quite S&M in my fantasies, but have no desire of acting on them.
Your OP wanted to act, but wouldn't force it on you in an obvious manner, but he did it while you could not consent and made it look like you had issues.
I'm not surprised he went on to more obvious sexual abuse.

Normal people might once do it while their partners are asleep, to wake them up, believing they will enjoy it. Probably projecting what they would like and not really thinking about the possible implications Normal, loving people, will stop doing it if their partners didn't enjoy it and will apologise Abusers will keep doing it, regardless. Probably because they know their partners don't enjoy it.

What does fantasy rape actually involve?

Let me rephrase that, What does re-enacting rape involve that you find attractive?

I have no problem with my girlfriend touching me or groping me in my sleep. I know that if I told her to stop she would.

PD, if it had been made clear that a bloke didn't wish to be woken up with a BJ, then yes it is abuse

pretty obvious, that one, in the context of this thread which so far has been pretty easy to follow

Vivacia, could you clarify who the question is for and what does it actually mean?
Re-enacting means acting again...

A rape fantasy, as any other fantasy, is about imagination. Sexual fantasies can't be explained. Different people have different fantasies. I find that some fantasies trigger strong sexual responses. To the point of almost orgasming on them alone.
I still prefer to have loving vanilla sex, and would probably giggle all the way if I engaged in S&M scenarios. And would be repulsed by actual non-consensual sex.

I can understand that some men may fantasise about non consensual sex. It's different to actually want to rape someone. To have that urge.
In the same way that many people play violent games but don't go about shooting people.

Matilda, as I understand it, a "rape fantasy" isn't about actually being raped, it's about being so carried away by desire/being so desired that the sex is out of control. Not something I get off on personally (the rape fantasy bit, not the overwhelming desire bit - I find I can fantasise about that without having to embed it in a rape fantasy) But I have talked to enough women who do get off on it to realise it's not uncommon. The crucial thing is that it's not a fantasy about real rape, it's a fantasy about being overwhelmed by sexual desire. So you're not imagining yourself as the victim of a real rape, but as a woman who is so sexually alluring that her partner can't resist (and to see that as a possible motivation for real rape is to completely misunderstand real rape, which is about abuse of power).

I think what was meant by "fantasising about rape" was that the fantasy was being had by a man who was doing a dry run in his mind for the real thing - and it really was the thought of real rape that was turning him on, not the thought of a role play game where both partners know it's a game. And it might be a turn on for him as potential rapist, but it could never be a turn on for his victim.

Lweji I meant it as an open question to anyone who has engaged in a rape fantasy. I meant "re-enact" as in "re-enactment society" not "repeating a personal experience I once had". I am happy for that to be replaced with a more accurate word, but "fantasy" made me think it could be a purely thought exercise.

So, when you act out a fantasy rape, what do you do and what does the man do?

So from Lurcio's description what would differentiate between acting out passionate, all-consuming desire and rape. I.e. a woman being penetrated against her will, hurt and humiliated?

Sorry, my grammar was terrible and the question didn't make sense,

"So from Lurcio's description, what would differentiate between acting out passionate, all-consuming desire and acting out rape, i.e. a woman being penetrated against her will, hurt and humiliated?

Speaking for myself, I don't know - as I say, it's not ever been my thing (possibly because I find myself mentally incapable of making that distinction which is why I find the whole idea a massive turn-off).

But I am prepared to believe those posters who say they can see a difference, and that it lies in prior discussion, careful boundary setting and the use of safe words (I still don't get why you'd get off on it, but then I am irredeemably vanilla).

However, that does not for a moment detract from the fact that penetrating someone while they sleep without prior discussion and the other person indicating that it's a sexual practise they'd welcome is bloody creepy and indicative of something at best extremely unhealthy about the relationship.

So, when you act out a fantasy rape, what do you do and what does the man do?

Was that for me? I'm definitely not going to describe my fantasies here. :)
And I certainly don't act them out.

The point here is distinguishing between the fantasy that is just imagination and in your head, versus someone having an actual desire to act out his fantasies on someone else. And not in a mutually consensual way, for example of pretend rape, but of actual rape, like Matilda's ex.

Also, rape is never about overwhelming sexual desire, but power over someone else.

Maybe I get on such loss of control fantasies because I am someone who likes to be in control of myself. It's escapism.

No, it wasn't aimed specifically at you Lweji, it was (still) an open question to anyone who feels they want to respond. So for you a rape fantasy is a daydream rather than something you act out with a partner.

Also, rape is never about overwhelming sexual desire, but power over someone else

I feel offended that you believe I need that pointing out to me, especially given as I'm the person who doesn't understand the whole rape fantasy thing.

Sorry, Vivacia, that part wasn't for you. It was a comment on a post by, I think, someone else.

Which I failed to read in full, it turns out. :)

This is all about communication. Agreements between each other on what is and isn't acceptable. If either person in a couple, wants no sexual contact under any circumstances whilst asleep, then that must be respected.

For me and DH, either of us is welcome to try. If the other responds positively, then the action can continue, if there is no response or a negative response, then it stops. It has never got as far as penetrative sex without both of us being awake, I think that would be a bit weird, but I have woken him up with a BJ before, and he has been nothing but delighted.

Rape fantasy I completely get. It is a long way removed from the reality of rape. Fantasy is all about desire, about being taken. The woman would be completely ready and willing, but wants to be taken. I often enjoy being submissive and tied up, so for me, it kind of fits in with that. Communication is vital though, so both people know where the boundaries are and when to stop.