any dating gurus around?

[Mitchy1nge]

so if you met someone, and had quite a nice time at a party with them (no snogging or sexuals) and you were reasonably sure he fancied you but you didn't fancy him as such but quite liked him as a person, and so if you went on to send him a message asking if he would like to come to the cinema to watch a film (that he had been talking about) with you but he hadn't responded within 24 hours would you:

1. think never mind, nothing ventured nothing gained
2. check you got the number right
3. find out where he lives and let yourself in while he is at work and surprise him?

I'm thinking 1 but I really do think he liked me, he wrote a lovely poem and everything (everything being making an origami crane) so am a bit puzzled that he wouldn't at least say thanks but no, or ideally 'yes that would be lovely'. Hmmm.

it was right on the line of play-wrestling which is what we seem to have spent lots of our time enjoying together so far

but why you would go so close to that line you could just about cross it I'm not sure

ugh

Hey Mitchy, am delurking to say have been completely enjoying your thread - you must write for a living, at least sometimes? - but this latest development has put my hackles right up.

You don't 'physically persist' - ever. And he's a great big tall person, you're small. He should be hyper aware of going nowhere near that line.

Biting isn't good but I'm glad you sent him a clear and immediate message that what he was doing was Not Ok.

Also was he disallowing words you knew were Scrabble-worthy? Was he being word boss?

Sorry if I'm being too negative - you seem like such a bright spark and it would be shit if someone started quashing that.

I now happily await being proved completely wrong!

Oh! Mitchy. I must admit my heart sank when I read the Very Bad Thing. Have you talked about it since?

we will talk it about it tomorrow - he did try at the time but I couldn't stop crying I felt so horrible about it, my reaction I mean. Now I'm just cross that I was somehow reduced to the status of a frightened animal at all. Without apportioning responsibility or dividing it between us or whatever it's not good is it?

and it was tumbling over and over in my head during my run and I resent that

as I said, the object was to bring a bit of extra happiness to one another's lives not to be all horrible and upsetting a few weeks in

Quite. I don't like the sound of it tbh

You need to talk to him and guage his reaction. And obviously then see how you feel about continuing. He needs to appreciate how serious something like that is. Don't let him minimise it or say it was just fun. No means no. No ifs no buts

he won't minimise it or brush it off as fun, am confident of that, but would like to hear his account of what happened - he said he had learned a lesson (actually he said we both had and then revised it to say that I had probably not learned anything), I asked what his lesson was and he said 'to be more gentle' and then some beautiful-but-deadly-trope stuff about me

that, 'be more gentle', is not really the actual point is it?

the more I reflect upon the whole thing the more I feel it is unlikely we will get very far beyond it but I still want to hear what he has to say tomorrow

apart from anything else what kind of man wants a girlfriend who has to be handled like a pet ferret or some more exotic creature of his imagination?

No, you're right, be more gentle isn't the point at all

And I think he's wrong - you have learned something - about him if nothing else

Oh dear. What a shame. Hear him out and then take some time to reflect and decide

Beautiful but deadly - ie he couldn't help himself because you affect him so deeply, etc?

If so, big red flag.

But sounds like you have the measure of things.

Such a blasted shame! But lucky to find out early.

thanks atrocious and bit

maybe I just won't go tomorrow after all, can't think of anything he could do or say that would make a substantive difference anyway

Awww! Such a bloody shame he turned out to be dodgy. It all seemed to be going so well.

Are you OK Mitch?

I actually don't know?

he might not be dodgy, I might be amplifying the incident into some Terrible Thing, he might just be a clumsy bastard who hasn't had sex with anyone for a very long time?

spoke to two RL friends and the first was a stupid idea, she's very sick and on the worst 'cancer journey' I could imagine, but she did ask. So instantly she was just 'oh lucky you, to have someone so whatever with lust for you' - this is not quite as horrible as it sounds, I did shag her flatmate all over her new flat within about 7 minutes of being introduced to him which helped to put her off ever finding another one. She found the whole thing (with this man, not her flatmate) a bit ridiculous I think. It is just the sort of thing that happens, she thinks.

The second friend is probably one of my longest term friends, over 23 years, I didn't like what he had to say either. Basically it was all very benefit-of-the-doubt as above, he's essentially a nice chap, he hasn't been in a sexual relationship for ages, he has apologised. And the bit that made me cry, are you sure you definitely said no, or were you saying no in a please-persuade-me way? Which is really hypocritical, he (friend) was in my house just a couple of days ago declining a glass of wine by saying 'I'm ok thanks' and a slice of cake by saying 'not for me' and a cup of tea with 'I just had one, cheers'. I pointed this out to him, at no point did he say 'NO FUCK OFF I DO NOT WANT A GLASS OF WINE' or even an actual 'no' and I was quite able to understand him. But sex things are different apparently. Especially for men. I asked if he would behave in the same way with someone he didn't know well enough to read and he said he probably would

so I don't know, validation would have been nice obviously but is possible am just being utterly ridiculous based on my tiny sample of two people?

Jesus. Your friends aren't being helpful.

Validation would be nice (and you have it here) but you know it didn't feel ok.

You are not being ridiculous. Your own reaction was its own validation Mitch

FWIW I have had more than one sexual partner fucking loads in fact and I have only ever had one of them ever cross the line that your man did the other night. Sex things are NOT different for men. They are just as capable as a woman of understanding what "no" means, no matter how you phrase it. And "Stop it" is pretty unequivical.

It boils my piss that men are still peddling this pathetic bullshit that they get so carried away, can't help themselves, it's different for them, they are not in control of their actions blah blah blah. It's bollocks.

Judge him by his reaction in the cold light of day. Be very very VERY wary because you know this has red flag written all over it.

thanks I do appreciate your thoughts

I might be being a bit ridiculous though. It is possible. To stop myself from feeling bad about almost biting someone's hand off, for example.

Well obviously I'd not condone violence. But it was your instinctive reaction (self defence) when you felt threatened.

None of us knows how we will react in these kind of situations until sadly it happens. I consider myself to be a very forthright, feisty person. But when I was attacked 30ish years ago I froze. Did and said nothing. I would never have predicted that. But In Extreme circumstances we sometimes do extreme things

Hmmm. I was attacked many years ago, and made my escape by biting the guy.... I think it got me out of being raped and possibly worse, so I think biting is good.....

You're not being ridiculous, Mitchy. Don't turn this on yourself.

thanks, will see how it all feels over lunch

am not turning it on myself as such but sometimes my reactions to perceived threats can be disproportionate and this is what I am brooding over, mainly, but also would like to hear his version of events and the kind of language he chooses to describe it.

I do feel quite a bit better after The Chat but no plans to see one another again (yet). Obviously while there isn't a remedy that will restore everything to how it was before, I'd like to accept his view that we simply don't know each other well enough yet to know where the boundaries are. However I've also had enough partners to know that there are men who don't feel the need to push and push and push until they find The Line and then try to break it down entirely and men for whom this is what sex is largely about. I wonder if he is more the latter sort than the first. Or if he what he says happened is actually what happened, we were messing about and the first inkling he had of me not being happy was my jaw clamping shut on his hand?

You don't have to know someone to know that you don't ignore them asking you to stop doing something - anything.

And particularly not in a sexual way.

It's not about discovering each other's boundaries. It's him ignoring yours and then justifying it in those terms.

Not poetic.

well, he doesn't remember saying or doing anything to convey that, apart from the bite

so one of us is mistaken about what happened?

doesn't remember me saying or doing anything

Hmmm. You wouldn't have bitten him really hard for no reason though. Is there a chance that could be selective memory on his part?