Support for those in Emotionally Abusive relationships: 23

[CharlotteCollinsismovingon]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
A check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Why financial abuse is domestic violence Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
Warning signs you?re dating a loser Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans - He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans - Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels - The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie - If you a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being Co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out - You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
Heart to heart a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

What couples' therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change:
Should I Stay or Should I Go bonus materials This is a site containing material for men who want to change - please don?t give him the link - print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
What you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

charlotte I keep remembering something you posted shortly after you told your FW that you still wanted to separate despite his hoovering. I'm misquoting you terribly but it was along the lines of him saying that it was unfair of you to have not told him that there was a deadline for him to start treating you well. And that now you had told him that his behaviour was unacceptable you should accept the new him unquestioningly. He didn't realise that he should treat you better and you should just be grateful that he's doing it now

yy to the past not even being mentioned. It seems to be all happy families here. A bit like Fawlty Towers ("don't mention the war"). I'm kind of going with the flow at the moment. Partly to see how quickly he sinks back into the depths. Partly to give myself some time to get strong enough for the final departure. I'm sure once he thinks that Mr Nice Guy has done the trick that he'll gradually worsen again. I know I don't have to wait for him to return to the abuse but for the minute that is what I feel I'll do. But keeping at the back of my mind that I don't have to stay. I could walk out at a moments notice if I need to.

bumpstarter that's awful about the DV course. have you done the Freedom Programme. I haven't (yet) but others on here have found it useful.

glab hope your DPis supporting you well. Your FW sounds horrible. That must have been really disconcerting having him snooping in your house.

Alice, yes, but I think there is a point that one needs to learn what consent is, and the right to exercise it, and one then needs to have the confidence to assert lack of consent.

If you grow up with no-one listening, or with negative consequences for speaking out, or just being, and you live in a society where the boundaries of consent are blurred, because inequality is ingrained, then it can be a long hard road to realise you are being treated as inferior, or being made to feel inferior, and then also to realise you can speak out against it, and then a lot of strength to assert your non-consent, and then the person who wants to make you feel inferior has so much invested in it, they up the ante. I do not consent, but they do not go away, they keep going.

The quote has much truth in it, but I wish I had been taught my right to refuse to consent to all manner of things, and I wish I had known to act when my inability to consent was violated.

Which may make no sense at all.

fox - it does make sense. And do you know what you wrote made me think of? A woman in a third world country, or in the past. But it's not. It's here, and now, in this country. People go on about equality, and how we live in an enlightened society blah blah. But there's still a ways to go. There's still miles to go. Women are not equal. Not yet.

I wish I had been taught my right to refuse to consent to all manner of things, and I wish I had known to act when my inability to consent was violated.
This. It makes me so sad to think that it's still the state of play that for the most part no action is taken. But I think it is.

Met with a friend this evening who is worried about his (38-year-old) daughter, and her newish partner who may or may not be a FW. I think he is, when my friend was telling me what had been going I was getting a sick feeling in my stomach and chills at the back of my neck, it was soooo similar to the situation with me and FW it could have been a cut-and-paste job. Being harshly authoritarian with her DS? Check. Isolating her from her family? Check. Getting her pregnant quickly? Check. And more besides.
I advised him that there was pretty much nothing he could do right now, except monitor things, try not to be seen to be coming between his daughter and her P, as that may isolate her more. And to focus on his grandson, and how he may be affected. Anyone else got any other advice I could give him?

If anyone remembers me talking about feeling triggered by talking to a teacher who was saying about how he controlled his class with intimidation, standing over the pupils - anyway, he's the P in question. I told my friend about this incident.

pony that does sound worrying. As you say, your friend's best route is to retain good relations with the fw whilst totally being there all the time for his dd. The minute fws sense disapproval, they will edge that person out and it's very hard to withstand when you're still bonded with a fw and haven't yet seen the light. Although it goes against his instincts, maybe he could bond with the fw as insurance for his dd when she needs support?

Pony I have been thinking about any advice and you know what.. I think it is even more difficult when it is a relation because of the isolation risk as you mentioned. I think the slow approach is best, as it will gain her daughters trust more, so even if she acts as a just someone her daughter can let off steam to and says little or nothing, her trust will grow and she will say more and she can help her more - which is how my Mum was to me. My Mum knew I didn't want to say too much, she was patient with me and is now a rock for me more than ever before. The fact your friend can see it is the good news and by keeping quiet she can be a really good form of defence for her DD as FW doesn't know - as soon as FW knows I do think she would be excluded you are spot on. It is a good thing your experience can help, it is what Lundy talks about isn't it.
Fox It does make sense and got me thinking about something that troubles me .. the ability to make an informed decision.... my FW did not let me do that and is trying to go down the same path with DS. If I had not allowed him to do things that I had not consented to I would not be here today with all my FWitery dominated troubles. I must remember that for tomorrow. The thing is I may be forced to consent where my DS is concerned not by FW, never, but by a judge.

Sorry pony your friend is a he that was really bad I missed that. Good idea breathe about the bond with him... enemies closer and all that.

My friend and his potential SIL have already had run-ins, although raw grief (he has just recently lost his wife - so his daughter's mother) plays a part. But I worry that his daughter's P has taken advantage in a vulnerable emotional time. I spent time trying to explain how FW isolated me from my family, was so harsh with DS1, etc, so he knows some of the script. Thank you all for your thoughts. I think it is a really good thing that he is so aware of this problem for his daughter. Forewarned is forearmed.

Is it tomorrow that your court hearing is, better?

pony, absolutely what breathe says. If the FW senses disapproval, he will isolate her from her support network, including parents, he will make them out to be trying to split them up, she will not know which way is up. They need to behave impeccably, whilst letting her know diplomatically any concerns. A hard balance. And if he does isolate her, be there when she comes to the door, no questions asked. These would be the parents I would have wished for.
And yes, the list is triggering. Why is it easy to see on other people's lists, but hard to label on your own past?

better, that is kind of my point. You say ' if I had not allowed him to do things I had not consented to'. The first point is how clearly you were aware that you were not consenting; or could not consent, did not want to consent at the time, what were all the factor blurring the boundaries of your consent, and most importantly, he should not have done things you did not allow, or where the boundaries of your consent were blurred.

As for making an informed decision, I suspect you can do that. You can weigh up the options and reach a reasoned decision. The issue is giving voice to that decision and being listened to, without having your decision and reasoning ignored or undermined.

All the best

X-post, apologies for talking about parents plural. I did not realise he had lost his wife. Sorry

fox - don't worry, it's ok, how could you have known? I didn't mention it in my first post.
I didn't know his wife, just know him from him bringing his grandson to the same class as DS1 goes to. As you say, the important thing is about his daughter - I tried to emphasise that if it does all go wrong (and he was already expressing concerns that way without me saying anything) then to let her know that he is there for her, whatever.

fox I was looking at it in the context that now I know the way H can sometimes make me feel, I am going to make every effort to make sure that I do now allow him to make me feel badly IYSWIM.

I am not going to feel badly if I do not take the DCs to an outing or gathering for H outside of the regular visiting times.

I am not going to feel badly for making my own decisions, even if those decisions make H angry or upset.

I am not going to feel badly for doing things for me.

I am not going to feel badly for being happy.

Alice liking your list - lots.. way to go girl!

Sorry to hear of that Pony he could do with dropping things into the convo about YOUr experience and how worried he was... you know, examples of things her partner does, but says its your FWex and how badly it affected you, but hearing her right to work it out for herself. She'll know he's there for her then.

healing thoughts to all xxx

No, I know, Alice, I agree with you, and I need to make my own list. But it is more at times when I have heard that before, I have felt powerless to change things because I was trapped in the web, without realising I was trapped. And the way I am churning recent events, maybe still partly there. So, need to take your approach. My comments were not meant negatively.

fi, i think that is a good suggestion. It was hearing a colleague say she had ended her relationship and that it was a good thing, which made me think, yes, maybe it can be a good thing. People react like it is the end of the world, but it is not.

Thanks for all the great advice, I get so lost in it all sometimes, especially when FW gets inside my head. It is so hard trying to deal with someone who doesn't play by any of the normal rules, other people are well meaning but their advice just isn't applicable when dealing with this sort of thing.

I am feeling more in control today, have emailed FW about potty training which we are starting this week, if still no reply then I will send the other email I have written outlining my concerns re. lack of communication and his inability to keep thinking of her best interests. I am still undecided about contact this weekend, I will see how this pans out.

Morning Glabella, am off out in a minute (am already running late ) but just wanted to say I am glad you are feeling more in control today. You are doing a great job in awful circumstances, and we all have good and bad days.

There's no rush Glabella its important to take your time to come to a decision like this. No one should pressure you, and in the meantime without contact.

Instigate contact YOU are HAPPY with - doesn't sound right does it?

.. but it is - I struggled with this when the police said it to me. xxx

Morning all, alice that is a great post, our emotions are our own, instead of feeling badly we can feel empowered! knowing that we have on our side a) logic and reason b) an army of MNers wielding kitchen implements.

Hi myself and dh have been in couples counselling for the last few months. We have always had a volatile relationship, both of sensitive and over reactive. We are verbally abusive and also can be emotionally abusive. There are quite a few destructive patterns in our relationship but also a very strong attraction between us, children, desire to make our relationship work, support and good times.

We struggle to resolve our differences amicably. I tend to "end" the relationship and then regret that decision after an hour or 2. This is one part of our destructive cycle. I ended it again in our counselling session last week as I felt nothing was changing and I accused him thinking that he really didnt need to change.

He tends to blame me for things and not accept any blame himself at least during the row. The next day or a few hours later he will take respsonsibility for his part.

I think a huge part of our problems is not being able to admit to feeling hurt or pained. So for example if my actions cause him pain, rather than saying that he is feeling hurt, he gets annoyed with me and blames me for other things which I then get defensive about and so we end up rowing.

I just feel that we are unable to get a run at our relationship that we are not getting over certain things. Maybe I am not giving it enough time. He has engaged with the counselling process as have I.

One part of me thinks we would be better off apart but that is not what I want. I want us to be able to disagree without putting the other down. I want us to have respect for the other and to nurture each other.

Is it possible to go from where we are to that position I wonder?

we are together 12 years, married for 8 and have 5 children between us, 2 together.

neither I am afraid I don't know the answer. I guess the answer is yes, technically it's possible, but it would take a lot of hard work - on both your parts, if you are both verbally abusive to one another. If you both want the same thing, then you would both have to commit to doing things differently, and actually do it - not reverting back to ending things during arguments, etc.

Not sure what the etiquette is regards reposting another person's post, but just read on another thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/a1790433-Talk-to-me-about-anger-management-for-DH from lovingfreedom and thought it was an important point, and a good way of looking at things:
^My ex was very good at apologising too...but it came to the point where I realised that most people don't need to apologise that much because they generally respect other people and act decently most of the time.

Also, when most people do have to apologise, they dislike it so much that they tend to learn from their mistakes to avoid being in the identical position again and to avoid hurting others again.

It took me years to realise that my ex's apologies were manipulative because I felt duty bound to accept apologies. And it was really just a way of getting away with the same behaviour over and over again. He was convincing though.^

That hits home with me because FW used to constantly text to say 'sorry about this morning...' (after shouting at me first thing and leaving me in tears again). And I have just realised, feeling duty-bound to accept any apology he made was definitely a part of him reeling me back in. It was the same cycle: he was horrible, I'd feel awful, he'd apologise and say 'come on let's have a good evening' and if I couldn't move on and accept the apology, then it was all my fault for spoiling what could have been a good evening.

Anyway, just thinking and sharing. As you were!

neither what is possible is for you to work on yourself. I was depressed and abusive for some years at the start of my relationship with FW. If I had not been like I was, perhaps he would have never discovered his inner FWittery.

As I said above, emotions belong to us, and so do their meanings. One part of your cycle is that at some point you feel so ?angry that you end the relationship. Then that feeling subsides. I wonder if doing that is your way of showing how much pain you feel - since you say that not stating this is one of your (mutual) problems.

So I would recomment detachment - but not in the way it is usually meant on here, detachment from FW. Rather, I mean detachment from your angry self, so that you have a choice when you get to that threshold level of anger, to end the relnship or to do something else.

I think the fact that he apologies quite quickly is a cause for hope. That is what I tried to do, when I was battling to own responsibility for my own angry outburts.

I hope this post makes a sort of sense - it seems to, to me... (BTW My FW fought with silence and non-commital. He never made the slightest attempt to change, nor did he apologise for anything)

It is possible to be caught in a cycle of abusive behaviours and yet for neither one nor the other nor both of the couple to be abusers.

We can learn maladaptive behaviours from many places and maladaptive cycles develop in many relationships.

In order to step out of the abusive cycle each of the partners need to take full responsibility for their own behaviours:

you may find this book helpful [[lbooks.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Emotionally_Abusive_Relationship.html?id=H29ivHHchmcC&redir_esc=y The Emotionally Abusive Relationship by Beverley Engel.

This is one off the occasions where couples counselling is of benefit but usually only after both partners have explored their own background and maladaptive responses in individual counselling.

But be sure to explore the possibility that one of you may be more invested in change than the other...if this is so then you will not salvage the relationship because no-one can take responsibility for anothers behaviour and no one can change someone else....

sorry

you may find this book helpful <a class="break-all" href="//lbooks.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Emotionally_Abusive_Relationship.html?id=H29ivHHchmcC&redir_esc=y" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Emotionally Abusive Relationship by Beverley Engel

pony the feeling duty bound to accept an apology and move on rings bells for me too. I know that each time he texts sorry (very rarely) that I think 'Oh he does care really' rather than seeing it for what it is - reeling me back in again.

A quiet day here which is good :)