I can't seem to be friends with men without them trying it on

[Isitallmyfault]

Is it my fault? Do I give off some weird kind of vibe? I'm married. Whenever I have a male friend they absolutely always try it on or an inappropriate. I don't even think I'm pretty this is no way a stealth boast. I'm so fed up with it. Maybe I give off a cheap/slut vibe or maybe I encourage it somehow. So pissed off at being flung into yet another awkward situation.

Disclaimer: of course i realise that people can meet platonically in bars, but again it is down to the environment and how you handle the situation.

are your norks on constant display

erm if you mean are they on the front of my chest, well yes.

Or do you mean my balcony bra, sheer fabrics, exposed decolletage? Dang, that must be it then. No wonder I have to fight off the men

They are under my clothes, trussed up to within an inch of their lives to stop them escaping. I'm not exactly proud of them, more alarmed, so don't exactly show them off, to answer your q.

A woman should be able to do anything they do with a female friend with a male one surely? Why shouldn't they?

It is perfectly possible that the kinds of male friends the op is choosing are sexist objectifiers yes... A lot of sexist men operate on a 'she hasn't said no' basis where the attention is given on the off chance because they see women as sex objects and not friends, these ones are to be avoided. I can't believe someone would be going on about women not being wild and not getting a reputation as fun loving. Why should being wild and fun loving be an invitation for sexual attention? It isn't a standard applied to men is it?

The op has stated clearly to us that she doesn't want this sexual attention, it doesn't matter at all what imagined signals she may be accused of sending out about availability... She doesn't want that kind of attention and no-one should be insisting on imposing it on her inspite of that. End of.

She needs to be able to communicate effectively it isn't wanted though and be strong in not tolerating people who behave that way towards her... IMHO anyway.

That's for her own comfort btw, still their fault for imposing the unwanted attention that's making her uncomfortable.

Heaven forbid a woman have an intimate and private friendship with anyone other than another woman! Even if the woman is lesbian or bi? Why do posters seem to suggest men are so dangerous?

They are not all covered though. Men will do it, that is look.
Mine are big too, but always covered. It keeps looks more to a minimum.

fwiw, I have trouble with a certain man. He is very very tall, and I am short. My natural line of vision, if I dont crane my neck to his eyes, is, erm, in the wrong place. Most embarassing.

I have a friend who gets attention from married men, they contact her subtly, fishing to see if she is interested.

She tends to hold people's gaze for just a few fractions of a second longer than normal, she does it with everyone. I think she might have a mild squint of sorts. Honestly I think the married guys pick up on this as her way of sussing them out, of prolonging that look a few seconds longer. As a result they act on it!? That's my theory anyway.

I've had some experience of this myself. I remember trying to drink in all the information the consultant was giving me when my father was ill. I was really staring into his face, trying to read the nuances of his facial expressions. I think he got a surprise by the intensity of the gaze, I think it sparked up a little chemistry. Maybe I am bonkers, but that is how it felt to me.

Eye contact can be key to flirtation.

Those are my musings anyway.

How do you know they are not all covered breeze ? And you cover up entirely? To stop men looking? Burqua next?

I don't mind people looking, it's leering that is the problem. That's a choice. Or making me the sum total of my norks.

As it is, I know a vicar's wife who tries to smother her serious norkage in chaste buttoning up to the neck. It has the opposite effect, in that you can't help noticing what she's trying to hide.

Anyway, that's besides the point. I'm not displaying my breasts on a tray but neither am I smothering them so men won't look.

Why does covering up breast tissue equate to a Burca next. Men usually cover up their breast tissue and no-body ever bats an eyelid or screams oppression.

Amazingly, given that communication is my favourite topic of all time, I've had to stop reading these posts due to wild exasperation! I'm with eccentrica 100% here.

We are responsible for the signals we give out, we have a social responsibility to understand this as well as we are able, and our signals do influence others' responses. If some folks occasionally misread us, it's either their fault, or a shared misunderstanding. If some folks always misread us, it's our fault.

OP boasted about how very fun and up for everything she is. I imagine this is a clue to her 'problem', though she's not been back to elaborate. If all your male students fall a little bit in love with you, Springy, it's because your demeanour requests it. Not a bad thing under the circs, probably, but it's not caused by your norkage. Some of the older teachers at my school had the most enormous embonpoints, which gave the impression of large buildings rather than welcoming breasts. It's the owner's choice!

And, no, this isn't rape apology. It's anthropology. If you liken the thread's issue to rape apology, you have bought into the myth that rape is a crime of desire. Flirting and crushing are human responses to desire. Rape isn't.

expressions of desire, not resposnes to

It is the same thing Molly yes precisely because the reason for entirely covering the whole body or just the breasst in each case is supposedly to prevent men being provoked to leer... Men are not required to cover their chests and if they feel pressure to it is not because they might provoke women to leer at them but because of the more general obsession with nakedness. Dubious, dubious to say the least that "cover up or it's your fault"...

Why is the op responsible for her possible (we don't know because she hasn't been back) unconscious signals but these men are not responsible for their actual conscious (same thing, hasn't been back to clarify) sexual attention giving?

Sorry but it does sound like rape apologism and woman blaming to say women have to modify their behaviour/attire/reputation to avoid having unwanted sexual attention inflicted on them by men in the ways suggested on this thread.

Funnily enough my dad stands outside on the pavement outside his house cutting the hedges in summer wearing speedos and he doesn't get women slowing down and honking at him, it's just women that people assume are dressing for the pleasure of men if they wear certain types of clothes. Can women really not wear a short skirt and blonde extensions because they like them and not be assumed to be doing it for attention? Such double standards.

I wouldn't agree that my demeanour requests it. I am a warm, friendly person. It is also my job to welcome young foreign people into my home who are, more often than not, frightened to varying degrees. My (natural) warmth and the demands of my job often = crush.

I am a master at swerving at inappropriate attention/wrong end of the stick. My personality type is suited to hospitality. Their (relative) vulnerability can easily lead to falling a little in love with me. I looked after one 14yo who was pretty ill for a few days - took him to hospital etc. He had a major crush on me afterwards. Crossed wires, if you ask me, nothing to do with me 'requesting' it. All fine, quite sweet.

I have a few friends who do what I do and they're battleaxes. Students live in our homes, I couldn't keep up a battleaxe front for long (though draw on it to great effect when needed).

So I agree with you up to a point garlic but not entirely. To put away my warmth entirely would be to entirely cover my norks iyswim. I do cover my norks and I do cover my warmth, but not entirely.

and btw I don't think my norks have anything to do with my students 'going weird'. Apart from when I shuffle cards (try it, it's quite difficult to stop the norks vigorously wobbling)

Actually, Springy, I got the impression you are aware of nuanced communication and choose the messages to give out. There are obviously dickheads everywhere, but they're not the topic here; we're taking about consistent misapprehensions - which are likely down to the sufferer, as s/he is the common factor. I see benefits to your students getting a little crushy on you, and there's really no harm in relishing positive male gaze in one's older years: especially as these are the times when we have improved our mastery of it :)

Offred, I've said it's likely she's responsible because she says it's a consistent phenomenon. It doesn't happen like this to me, or to anyone else who's posted about how they bring interactions back on track if they swerve.

It used to happen to me for a while when I was vulnerable, obviously so and not necessarily giving off an appearance of sexual availability, probably the opposite, I was always covered completely because I was self-harming and wearing baggy men's style clothes. I think what was key there was that I was obviously vulnerable and that attracts people who want to exploit that, not my fault or responsibility either.

I frequently get sexually harassed by men in pubs who grab and pull me, I think sexual harassment which people think is 'justified' by the things talked about on this thread is pretty common. If you pick that kind of man to be friends with then that kind of thing will happen but it's still their fault because it is unacceptable to assume the way someone looks or dresses is a come on.

And there are plenty of good men who will relate to you as a person rather than a sex object. I think they are less common but there are plenty of them.

Yes it's nice, up to a point, but I'd rather not have it, I'd rather we were friends (apart from anything, when I do my round-the-world trip I'd like places to stay...). I am also seriously tempted on occasion (older students of course!), not that they'd ever know it. But that's besides the point.

I used the students to illustrate the point. HOwever, as with OP, similar things happen to me, too. I do think it's down to having a warmth and attractiveness (channelling Samantha Brick here) that is just, well, attractive. It isn't a flaw, or a misjudgement, it just is. As it would be if someone was eg physically attractive. People are drawn and that's that. Nobody's fault.

I used to be more naturally warm and charming but it wasn't suited to the workplace so I've knocked the edges of it and just try to be more practical.

It's all a choice.

Nothing wrong with warm and charming but it does give off a different vibe to practical, and it is more often confused as an 'invitation to treat', than practical is.

I agree it's not about covering, but it can be about attitudes.
I don't often have men "trying it on", but I had once a socially inept colleague (very bad at reading signs, or a predator) and another misguided colleague.
It does depend on the cues given.
I have had very friendly and touchy feelly colleagues of whom I thought nothing of because they are like that with everyone.

There are invisible boundaries between friendships and sexual relationships. Sometimes some people misinterpret where the boundaries are and make unwanted advances.
If they are misinterpreted all the time, then I'd agree that the OP may well be crossing those boundaries quite a lot of the time. Or choosing creeps to be friends with.
Honestly, most faithful men in relationships will probably not choose to spend a lot of time one to one with female friends, particularly if instead of their partners and if they don't share a long history.

I've been out of work for a while and find I can be too casual in professional situations (I actually replied 'cool' in an interview recently ). It's hard to rein it in, get it right. A bit like that sunscreen song about east coast/west coast = too hard, move to Cali; too soft, move to NY.

Yes Offred, I think your vulnerability probably attracted abusive types :(

I think sexual harassment is abusive. It is an attack, not a step in the human mating dance. Any claims that you invited harassment by your clothing or behaviour are obviously false ... unless you wished to invite attacks, which would be weird.

If a woman surrounds herself with misogynists of any gender, she will suffer misogyny. Likewise if a person of colour surrounds herself with racists. As it goes, she'll probably suffer less of it than an unsuspecting female visitor to her circle, as she'll have modified her communications to defuse the hostility. This argument supports the idea that we're able to influence all of our social interactions, because we are human and humans are social animals. Exceptions to this are people with communication-related disorders, including but far from limited to violent misogynists (ASDs, for example.)

In the general run of things, we're able as adult human beings to interact in myriad ways, and our manners of doing so are within our control. Anybody whose behaviour is fixed - all the time or only in certain scenarios - is behaving dysfunctionally. This would include men who always growl at women in short skirts, as well as women who always make a sexual "display" towards men.

What constitutes "display" tends to vary between societies, though there are also consistencies. We might make mistakes in unfamiliar circumstances, but we learn damn fast - we're pre-programmed to learn it. Anybody who consistently makes the same error is socially dysfunctional.

Offred has nailed it, I reckon.

I particularly agree that there's a strong double standard around women being wild and fun-loving versus men.

I think the views expressed in this post If youre going to have male friends, then you need to be very clear to them that you do not want to fuck them ever. Otherwise, they will likely think that they might get lucky at some point ... It takes a very special sort of modern man who can actually do platonic friendships properly. Its not a natural state, and even those who can do platonic friendships, probably fantasise about sex with you at time are hopelessly outdated. I don't know how 'special' I'd say my male friends are but they can definitely 'do' friendship with me, and with other women too.

As for
eating a meal together in the evening
sitting together in a bar with alchohol and a cool soundtrack

I have always done these with male friends, without it being misconstrued. I wasn't aware that the connotations were a problem.

I sometimes feel like I live in a parallel universe when I get into this kind of thread.

I'm quite glad I do, tbh.