I can't seem to be friends with men without them trying it on

[Isitallmyfault]

Is it my fault? Do I give off some weird kind of vibe? I'm married. Whenever I have a male friend they absolutely always try it on or an inappropriate. I don't even think I'm pretty this is no way a stealth boast. I'm so fed up with it. Maybe I give off a cheap/slut vibe or maybe I encourage it somehow. So pissed off at being flung into yet another awkward situation.

I think it's perfectly okay to be good with eye contact, relaxed, open of body language and touch-feely. It's okay to be a bit flirty, even, why not?

But some people have a ferocious inner drive to be found sexually attractive. The most extreme example of this was a woman in my rehab group. She had a history of spectacular sexual abuse in childhood, which explains her but isn't necessary for this phenomenon to occur (I suspect there'd be an element of dodginess, but that's another thread.) The thing is, she had no idea she did what she did. Apparently nobody had pointed it out before bigmouth here did so. It was subtle but insistent, and highly effective. Men were drawn to her, fascinated by her, responded to her differently from all the other women in the room, and she was propositioned several times a night (and we were at AA meetings!)

Isit, you seem very proud of your fun-ness, adventurous spirit and so on. You sound like a blast But are you over-emphasising these aspects of your character? Is it, perhaps, really very important to you that other people - men, especially - recognise what a very non-boring woman you are? In short, are you 'performing', perhaps more than others do?

'I have a friend who meets guys from work regularly for coffee or a drink, spends hours and hours chatting to them, one to one'.

Oh dear. I do this too ? well, not with anyone from work but with the men I know. I thought it was called 'spending time with friends'.

I think rather than changing herself by wearing sackcloth and worrying about her 'reputation' (does anyone else feel like they're in The Scarlet Letter on this thread?) the OP should just find some decent male friends who won't try it on.

This is just my take on it and is based on my friend who I will call E.

DP and I met E when she started going out with a mutal friend of ours. She is very pretty and "full of fun and up for a laugh". But she used to get unwanted attention and male friends (even married ones) hitting on her and trying it on an she could never work out why.

I used to observe her when we were all in a group. She was loud, always laughing, but always spoke about sex, talking about blow jobs and make crude jokes with her DP. He would make crude jokes about her and she would join in. This probably made her look sex mad and up for it.

Of course nothing was further from the truth. She was devoted to her DP and was not interested in anyone else. She was always suprised when men hit on her or started to send her inappropriate texts.

E is still a good friend of mine and she has a heart of gold, but the way she acts seems to send signals that she is not aware of, signals that spell out she is sex mad and has no limits, so is mystified when something happens.

Maybe OP you should look at what signals you are sending out. I am not suggesting that you are as loud as E but she never realised the signals she was giving out and to her it was just having a laugh not realising that men and women read things differently.

My DP had a crush on E for a while, it was a rough time for us.

Yes, there are loads of things women are advised to in order to signal sexual availability in a friends-to-dating situation, one of which is talking about sex. Others include things my friend (F ) did, like fixing your target with an extra-long stare, hair-tossing, calling attention to your body and so forth. It must be easy to develop these habits without noticing.

I think you need to define 'trying it on'. Give us an example.

If you have to ask whether you give off a cheap/slut vibe then I think perhaps you probably do.

the only time this has ever happened to me is when I spend a lot of time listening to men and show and appreciation or interest in something they're telling me. Sometimes i'm being polite, sometimes I'm genuinely interested, but 99% of the time they confuse the attention I give them for something sexual

OP you sound like a dear friend of mine. She's the most fun and cool person, while being quite happy with her own company. Not OTT at all and not overly gregarious. There is something about her 90% of men who meet her fall a little bit in love with her - sometimes a lot. She does nothing out of the ordinary and does nothing to encourage it. it was a burden of sorts and she did alter how she socialised to avoid being hit on.

She's had 2 LT relationships (she's 45) and she is excellent at monogamy.

There's some shocking misogyny on this thread!

offred it's not misogyny. We're all women I think, and weve all seen how this works.

Personally I've had times in my life when I get loads of flirting and come-ons from men (and occasionally women) and times when I get none.

The first category has ALWAYS coincided with me being unhappy in current relationship and unconsciously wanting a self esteem/ ego boost. I didn't magically get prettier, it's about signals we give off.

It's not hard to read in OP's posts, even the thread title, that she's pretty proud of this and is getting a big ego boost from it. if she truly wants to change it she needs to understand and acknowledge this. And change the signals she gives out.

No no no no no to 'changing signals'!!! The OP must be herself at all times otherwise we're all down the 'women are responsible for men's lust' path that leads to burkas and other mediaeval forms of oppression. Offred's quite right. But the OP must be herself with eyes wide open and prepare to reject unwanted attention at an early stage.... even if it risks causing offence. So not the OP 'changing signals' but being more alert to 'signals' from these groin-thrusters and slap them down rather than carry on being nice

and is getting a big ego boost from it.

Agree. Ego boost for OP, who knows exactly what she's doing. Nobody's saying OP shouldn't be who she is... the point is she already knows the reaction she's going to get because she's looking for that reaction in the first place.

So tell us more OP. You're married with DC? Many female friends? Many long-term male friends where the boundaries are already set and you're comfortable with each other? Are you actively seeking male friends now, ie people to chat to, confide in, do things with like you would with a female friend.... or are you just looking for male company?

So you think the OP's basically a bit of a slapper Helltotheno?.... Very sisterly...

Not at all. I think she's looking for male attention though, not friends, hence the reaction she's getting.
I was just interested to hear some background. Sometimes people are unconsciously looking for something that's not fulfilled in them.

I'm plenty sisterly when required Cogito :)

'So not the OP 'changing signals' but being more alert to 'signals' from these groin-thrusters and slap them down rather than carry on being nice'

Hallelujah to that.

Honestly, just cool it and dont act fun loving and wild when around male friends.

It isnt fair, but i think you just have to keep guys at arms length and as aquaintances unless youre ok with being hit on and having to rebuff them all the time

Cogito " The OP must be herself at all times otherwise we're all down the 'women are responsible for men's lust' path that leads to burkas and other mediaeval forms of oppression."

Sorry but bringing 'burkas' and 'medieval oppression' into this is simply nonsense. As women we are mostly aware that (as described in my post above) there are times we get a lot of male attention and times we get basically none. This has very very little to do with 'attractiveness' in any simple way and everything to do with whether or not we are open to those advances on some level. Even if we don't want to actually 'do' anything with them, but just for an ego boost.

Getting one unwelcome come-on could be bad luck. Getting repeated advances from every single man you know means either that you've been doused in some magical sex appeal potion, or that you are sending out signals that you are open to this, on some level.

OP asked how to stop this happening and I am answering by taking her at her word and assuming she really wants to stop it, not by getting into some abstract argument about 'men's lust'.

I can still remember my sister as a student walking to my flat and expressing shock and amazement that she had had comments and beeping horns from men on her way round. She had bleached blonde hair extensions and was wearing a micro-mini skirt, cropped top and high heels, and carrying a fluffy pink handbag. Hahaha.

P.S. "Being yourself" is a myth that assumes we all have 'true selves' and that we don't make choices about how we act or perform in social situations. Unless you behave and talk exactly the same way in front of your children, parents, work colleagues, old friends, new partners, and strangers on the bus, you don't have "a true self" that you can simply "be". You act a certain way and obviously you can choose to modify that if it is getting particular reactions.

Hang on a minute, I'm constantly getting unwarranted sexual attention. Even the guy at the supermarket, when I asked where the plastic bags were for the veg, took it as an invitation of some kind. I didn't even notice the gender of the person standing next to me, it was just a bod. He thought I was coming onto him, so he came on to me.

Being generally friendly and open seems to draw unwanted attention. It could be that men can think 'she'd be up for it', or it could be that attention of any kind is very attractive to a man . I hesitate to say this but since my norks have become enormous (age!), men can often assume my huge mammaries are an invitation of some kind. Tiresome.

I also hesitate to say that ime men don't get friendships with women. They're trying to categorise you - does she want it? does she find me attractive? could I do it if no-one knew? I'm not sure they get friendship for friendship's sake. This is my experience, anyway.

I'd also be wary of humiliating a man who comes onto you - eg 'Back off you seedy git or I'll be letting your missus know what you're really like!'.... that's the kind of put-down the OP needs to rehearse . You don't know what type of person you're dealing with. (Learnt that on a self-defence course.)

agree eccentrica.

Theres no such thing as a true self, certainly not in public social situations.

If men are coming on to you all the time, its almost certainly nothing to do with how you dress or look, its a perception that you'd be receptive to it (obviously wrongly)

Between men and women and the mating game, there are all sorts of signals people are desperatly trying to interpret constantly, and god forbid somebody gets it wrong - humiliation etc.
Nowadays in this society men and women are "friends" so much more than at any time in history and more than in any other culture. Mistakes are made all the time.
You cant change other peoples behaviour. Its easier to just look at our own behaviour as the common denominator.

i get this at work where i deal with regular customers. I am just being nice and polite and chatty, and they suddenly start going all weird on me!

I am not a real looker, nor am i flirty or over friendly. I am not even touchy feely because there is glass in the way!

eccentrica, I don't think it's nonsense to mention burkas. Cogito only said that the 'change your behaviour/appearance' message is on the same continuum as these things, which I think is true, not that it's an exact equivalent if measured by degree.

Your sister's experience wasn't to do with giving off subtle signals of body language, verbal language etc, it was about overt visual signs. That is NOT a value judgement on ehr, by the way. Just saying that that's a somewhat different thing.

I think by 'be yourself' Cogito just meant don't worry about trying to act unattractive to men, rather than thinking that the OP or anyone behaves the same way all the time.

springy, 'ime men don't get friendships with women. They're trying to categorise you - does she want it? does she find me attractive? could I do it if no-one knew? I'm not sure they get friendship for friendship's sake. This is my experience, anyway.'

I have male friends and I'm sure, without a shadow of a doubt, that they have never tried to categorise me in a sexual way and that our friendships are for friendship's sake. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong ? just adding a different kind of experience to the discussion.

Clarice But it is not on the same continuum. If OP is happy having all the men she knows come on to her all the time, that's absolutely fine. She started this thread asking for help as to how she could stop it.

You can either say "it's not your fault, you are not responsible for men's lust" i.e. you are completely helpless to change it, or you can be a bit more realistic and therefore helpful, and say "obviously you are sending off the wrong signals, have a think about your behaviour".

Visual signs such as clothing are one type of nonverbal signal; they are not completely different from the words you say, your gestures, body language, eye contact etc.

"be yourself" suggests that there is a single way you behave "naturally" and to behave any other way is to "not be true to yourself". The point I am making is that we all "act" at all times, the OP is choosing to act in a particular way which is getting particular reactions. If she wants to stop those reactions she should act differently.

Incidentally what Cogito said, that you should not change your signals but change the way you respond to others' signals, is just sophistry. They amount to exactly the same thing.

I'm a host to foreign students. Part of my job is to be friendly and kind, talk to and listen to them, generally look out for them. I normally ask about their families - it's a good way to get them speaking in english without them being too aware of it. To a one, the male students get a crush on me - 'go weird' as gosuckeggs says (well said ). Even the gay ones! work that out then.

we all "act" at all times

Maybe this is where I'm going wrong. Or right