'Leave the bastard!'

[Abitwobblynow]

Is the MN common refrain. In fact, it is presented as THE ONLY option, and MN gets very shirty (and some people can resort to nasty labelling) if the OP declines from doing that - straight away.

But is it the only option? Is it always the right thing to do, straight away? Here is Lundy Bancroft:

'There can sometimes be advantages to giving your partner your time so he can change.

You might use the time to construct a plan of exiting as safely as possible, with as many sound emotional and financial resources a s possible - this is especially important if your partner is violent or threatening, or has indicated that he will get financial revenge if you leave him.

With a dangerous partner, you might use the time to hope that he loses interest in you, so that he is the one to leave you, which can be safer.

Giving him your time might give you the sapce to become very clear about what is happening; going through repeated patterns can give you the opportunity to identify them, prepare yourself emotionally for them, and see the range of his ability.

Giving him your time can allow you to manage major life transitions, such as caring for infants or very small children, or dealing with a relative's sickness and death, with fewer disruptions than leaving might ential.

Giving him your time can allow you to articulate for yourself what exactly your 'deal breakers' are so you are more prepared to insist upon change, and to reinstate for yourself your standards and your clarity.

.., when safety is not an issue, can allow you to detach yourself from the intense care and responsibility for him, and reestablish yourself as a priority, even while in the relationship.
Giving him your time can assuage the voices in you that say 'what if', or 'I have to'... These voices can't be heard and these expectation met until you can meet them squarely and feel confident in your conclusions.

Giving him your time, if things are noticeably improving, can connect you to the love, hope and expansive feelings you felt when you first met.
... if things are noticeably imporiving, can afford you some of the acknowledgement and healing that you desire and deserve.

Giving him your time can help you feel certain of yourself as a person who has treid everything, who is committed to relationships, who believes in giving people a chance.
Giving him your time can give your children a chance to be in an intact family. (Of course, the costs can quickly turn too high for you, and for your children also, so be alert to when the costs start to outweigh the benefits).
Giving your time can spare you the pressures of having to go through finding a new partner and building a new life.

THE DECISION OF WHEN TO STOP WAITING FOR YOUR PARTNER IS A DIFFERENT DECISION FROM THE ONE ABOUT WHEN TO LEAVE HIM.

It is possible to leave your partner but remain attached to waiting for him. ... And just as you can leave but keep waiting, you can do the opposite: stay and move forward...

So I think here at MN we should honour the inherent wisdom of women who come here with destructive partners. Bottom line, I do believe they weigh up their options and they are doing what is best for them (whilst they gather strength, money, education, jobs - whatever the resources needed to move on).

There are reasons why people end up with abusive men and though it often sounds like a nice normal woman has accidently landed herself with a cruel, manipulative man it isn't that simple and if she decides to leave then she needs to have come to understand herself, and what it was that attracted her to this type of man, or why she inadvertantly ended up with this distressing set up, and deal with that or there is a risk that she can move onto another similar relationship.

So I would say that giving yourself time to prepare to leave AND understand why you got into this relationship (or perhaps to understand what is needed from the man to save it and whether that could be possible) is better than leaving in a panic without a full understanding of your new needs and wishes.

Though, naturally it is better to leave immediately if it is violent.

It's all well and good though isn't it saying it isn't wrong. What is that actually based on though wobbly's spectacularly happy life(?) I'm not meaning to stick the knife in, I would throw the biggest hoorah to anyone who managed to get a disrespectful abusive partner to reform and continue happily in a healthy relationship as equals, even more so if it was wobbly, BUT I have never known it. Every single person on here who says they stayed and describes their situation in the present is "working on it" (themselves or their partner) and still being treated like crap and really eager to defend the decision to stay with "but what about" or "I don't believe in".

This thread is disingenuous because it is talking about staying not always being wrong (where there is abuse because really that is what we are talking about; varying degrees of abuse) but never once have any of the women who chose to stay explained how happy they are yet all the women who left, even if they were also distraught/damaged, express relief on leaving it strikes me leaving someone who treats you badly seems to be create people who feel happy with their choice whereas staying is making a choice the person is happy with. I think ultimately the person better off is the one who makes the difficult choice which ultimately will make them happier, giving an abuser time to change I think is incredibly unlikely as an outcome of staying together. From my own experience I feel it absolutely is not possible to build/repair yourself whilst living with your abuser. What is possible is to gain some mental freedom from the mind control required to abuse but I think it is only possible to actually make real changes once you are away from the source of the damage. "Giving time"... It's like trying perform neuro surgery in an earthquake...

And no-one referenced threads where supposedly "MN" says, mainly because "MN" doesn't actually say anything at all. Some posters on MN might say some things, the idea that MN has some kind of collective intelligence and offers it's own advice is ridiculous. On threads normally it is a minority of people who post something extreme and I don't think it is fair to imply they represent all of MN.

It is quite simple; the logic behind people who left/were left and are now happy is that they are often in new lovely relationships or at least have learned to spot dickheads earlier or at the very least are simply free from poor treatment by someone their life was intertwined with. People who stay, just what part of that is ok? Where is the happiness? How much time have you given it and what have you/dc gotten out of it? I thank God XP left me and forced me to confront all my inner "children with separate homes, don't want to be a relationship failure" narrative.

Offred is right.

Most abusers behave the way they do simply because they can. Staying simply validates their lack of respect for you, and permits them to disregard your feelings - and endorses their expectation that despite your unhappiness and protestations, you will accept and forgive their behaviour.

In their mind, you wouldn't hang around if you didn't love them - or if you had any self-respect. It makes you vulnerable, which is exactly what they look for in a partner.

After all, if you don't respect yourself, why should they respect you? In their mind, that alone gives them permission to continue and escalate their abuse.

There was a similar thread a little while ago, ABitWobbly, where you attempted to convince us all that you were doing the right thing in staying with your abuser of a husband.

You said many of the same things you are saying here. That you are staying within the relationship to gain understanding about yourself. It was horrible to read then, and it is still horrible. Even worse, that you could recommend it as a course of action for others.

You didn't get any support for it back then, so you threw a massive hissy fit and got the thread deleted. Nothing has changed...not for us, and not for you.

I'm sitting here with a couple of great and well adjusted kids who are secure, popular, confident, performing well at school and not visibly or apparently scarred by their parents separating a year ago. Year ago I was making excuses to my DD about why I pandered to her dad and why he didn't seem to have to follow the same set of ruled he set for everyone else.
I stayed for the sake of the kids.....but ultimately also did the best for the kids by splitting.
No regrets and if I'd known that sooner would have felt much better about just doing right for myself. Life is now better for them as well as me I think.

I found it difficult to find out about myself in the relationship because being with him was so stressful, draining and time consuming.

If you are thinking of leaving your husband OP I would recommend it. Life becomes much more fun and you will cope. So will the kids....you help each other through it.

I find these types of threads insidious in that the option of leaving is criticised.

I don't think any abusive or disfunctional relationship can be maintained at all without the option of leaving, or at least distancing (which is leaving in a way).

I do know someone who seems to have overcome a bad period in her marriage (OH was a "porn addict"). But she left. He "worked on his addiction", they got back together and it seems that they are happy now.
But she left first. And he knows she will if he is a bastard again.

Wobbly, I respect your decision to stay (in some form) and gather strength rather than just divorce.
How is it working out, though?
Can you really distance yourself? Can you ever get rid of the speck of hope that he will change?
TBH, I think it's a lot harder to stay than to leave.

Life is better for us as well although that doesn't necessarily always mean easier. My DC have a great step father and step grandparents who show them great examples of the right kind of love. This has often caused them heartache about their father who only provides them with love that hurts but this is the right way for them to be. Love that hurts isn't what they should think is normal or acceptable.

That's what I meant really lueji - easier choice, harder outcome. Leaving is the harder choice but ultimately, I think, happier and more productive outcome.

Great post Dahlen,

Anyone who works with abused women will understand that forcing them to confront the reality of their situation before they are ready will usually result in massive cognitive dissonance where they end up defending their partner to such an extent that the only solution left to them is to believe themselves purely at fault.

This is the reason why the LTB approach is not always the best one. (Apart from the fact that it is putting a woman in grave danger if the man is violent). It might also be why Wobbly is so very wobbly now. She needs to talk this through and I do wish people would enable her to do this.

I'm well aware of what dahlen says, though there still hasn't been any evidence offered that actually "MN" does bully people who won't/can't leave or spouts blanket LTB or doesn't respect/support the choice to stay. The quibble is with the "not wrong" rather than the "I've chosen" which is damaging because it presents to people who don't know the poster's history a view that objectively staying with an abuser is not something that will negatively affect you.

By deflecting the scrutiny from the quality of the choice to stay with all the "MN says" it reinforces that opinion as an objective truth, someone else reads it and repeats it and it is given more credibility. However it has never been scrutinised or justified in itself, just in comparison to some other opinion all coming from the one, biased and defensive, op.

"Not wrong" is like "giving time" really though isn't it - extremely subjective to the point of either meaninglessness in an extremely specific topic area, or able to be used to justify almost anything.

Offred it really isn't that surprising that she's defensive.

She's trying to explore the process of leaving, looking at ways of doing it that suit her. It might take many attempts but if she can't do it she shouldn't be made to feel bad about that, she should be encouraged to explore her relationship and work out how she can do it better next time. I don't read her OP as being an excuse to stay with an abuser for longer, it's her way of saying "I can't do this alone and I need more time to get my head round it". We should be empowering her and enabling her, not getting tetchy about her (largely correct) generalisations of MN LTB advice.

Giving him time is her way of getting time for herself whilst still being in control.

She is defensive about the choice but this thread (and other posts leading up to it) is aggressively pushing the choice to stay as superior to the choice to leave. I don't agree the generalisations are good enough. They do not reflect the advice given. All I'm saying is fine stay, choose to stay everybody would respect that choice. If you do though don't present that personal choice as the right thing to do in some circumstances when you yourself are not even sure and criticising, using generalisations which I feel are quite unfair, advice that has helped other people to actually successfully work out their problems. If the point of the thread is sometimes it is right to stay then let's at least hear how that works in the real world from the advocates of it.

Achillea, what is dangerous is that wobbly doesn't really come here to talk about herself or even ask for advice. Or discuss her situation.

It worries me a bit that she mostly comes from a perspective of I know better, and generic topics.

I fully understand how hard it is to LTB and only did when he became violent.
But I have also detached within the relationship, which led to the violence, and fully understand how my commitment to the relationship and to stay in it allowed ex to abuse.

The difference is that I and other women have gone to the other side and have a different perspective.

People who say LTB haven't just dropped their exs at the first sign of abuse. Most will have tried every possible tactic to work at the relationship and failed because the other person just didn't care.

I am currently supporting a friend through an abusive relationship.
I'm not bullying her to leave, and understand her reasons to stay for now, but I'd be wary if she started dishing out advice that staying in an abusive relationship can work.

I didn't even leave at all. Technically he left. It was an absolute gift to me. I would never have left.

Dear All,

I left the bastard.

Wow! wobbly! and and ((hugs)) if you want them. I'm in shock. Fwiw, I think you've done the right thing... but more importantly, how are you feeling? x

WOW..wobbly ...brave woman. For leaving and for posting it

may all good things come to you.

Well done you! Are you ready to talk about it?

I read through half the thread before I realised it was started last November, but carried on reading anyway.

I have seen you on so many threads wobbly clearly struggling with your life and how your (now) ex treated you. Your pain and internal conflict was clear.

I am delighted to hear you have left the bastard.