'Leave the bastard!'

[Abitwobblynow]

Is the MN common refrain. In fact, it is presented as THE ONLY option, and MN gets very shirty (and some people can resort to nasty labelling) if the OP declines from doing that - straight away.

But is it the only option? Is it always the right thing to do, straight away? Here is Lundy Bancroft:

'There can sometimes be advantages to giving your partner your time so he can change.

You might use the time to construct a plan of exiting as safely as possible, with as many sound emotional and financial resources a s possible - this is especially important if your partner is violent or threatening, or has indicated that he will get financial revenge if you leave him.

With a dangerous partner, you might use the time to hope that he loses interest in you, so that he is the one to leave you, which can be safer.

Giving him your time might give you the sapce to become very clear about what is happening; going through repeated patterns can give you the opportunity to identify them, prepare yourself emotionally for them, and see the range of his ability.

Giving him your time can allow you to manage major life transitions, such as caring for infants or very small children, or dealing with a relative's sickness and death, with fewer disruptions than leaving might ential.

Giving him your time can allow you to articulate for yourself what exactly your 'deal breakers' are so you are more prepared to insist upon change, and to reinstate for yourself your standards and your clarity.

.., when safety is not an issue, can allow you to detach yourself from the intense care and responsibility for him, and reestablish yourself as a priority, even while in the relationship.
Giving him your time can assuage the voices in you that say 'what if', or 'I have to'... These voices can't be heard and these expectation met until you can meet them squarely and feel confident in your conclusions.

Giving him your time, if things are noticeably improving, can connect you to the love, hope and expansive feelings you felt when you first met.
... if things are noticeably imporiving, can afford you some of the acknowledgement and healing that you desire and deserve.

Giving him your time can help you feel certain of yourself as a person who has treid everything, who is committed to relationships, who believes in giving people a chance.
Giving him your time can give your children a chance to be in an intact family. (Of course, the costs can quickly turn too high for you, and for your children also, so be alert to when the costs start to outweigh the benefits).
Giving your time can spare you the pressures of having to go through finding a new partner and building a new life.

THE DECISION OF WHEN TO STOP WAITING FOR YOUR PARTNER IS A DIFFERENT DECISION FROM THE ONE ABOUT WHEN TO LEAVE HIM.

It is possible to leave your partner but remain attached to waiting for him. ... And just as you can leave but keep waiting, you can do the opposite: stay and move forward...

So I think here at MN we should honour the inherent wisdom of women who come here with destructive partners. Bottom line, I do believe they weigh up their options and they are doing what is best for them (whilst they gather strength, money, education, jobs - whatever the resources needed to move on).

I left the bastard.

Ok it was patently obvious it was what I needed to do but without MN I wouldn't have done it.

I still love him, I hate being without him. It's been almost a year and it hasn't got any easier.

Most of that is probably because we have a DS so he is still a constant part of my life and always will be.

I have dark days, really dark days, scarily dark. But I never doubt that I made the right decision. I know not being with him is the only option but it doesn't stop me wishing it could be different.

Without MN there's no way I would have stuck with it.

Thanks to the "man hating nest of vipers" I have looked after my DS alone for almost a year. I never would have thought I could do it alone but I have. It's been just me and him since he was 4 months old.

Even on my worst days I'm pretty fucking proud of that.

Of course it's not the right option 100% of the time but you'll have to excuse me for getting defensive when people criticize or belittle the very advice that changed my life.

One of my biggest goals is to feel strong enough to come back on to the Relationships board and give my time and energy in the way a lot of the wonderful posters on here do. I'm not there yet. I've tried a couple of times but I just find it too hard to read threads similar to mine and tbh feel a hypocrite offering advice, but I will get there.

If I can make a difference to just one person I'll feel I've started to repay my debts.

Oh, well, one day I hope to meet solidgold in person. And I've lived about a hundred years in nearly 42.

I believe there's only one shot at this. There's nothing else. And if you lived to be a hundred, it's far, far too short be wasting 'giving' on adults who just don't give a shit and never will, second guessing and just any other shit.

And if you think there's no support, well then stick around here. Meet a few of us in real life, I can guarantee, we are real people. These real people were at my child's funeral and wake, before that, they were there, in person, with visits and food parcels, by mail, with cards and packages and artwork, or however else they could be.

Stop wasting time on someone who doesn't care, or listening to people who tell you to do so.

I have seen LOTs of women on here in desperate need of support who are not yet ready to leave an abusive relationship be hounded relentlessly by the leave the bastard pack until they feel as abused by the so called "support" on this forum as the are by their partners. I've seen people be told they are abusing their children by not packing their bags an going straight to a shelter, that they are bad mothers, have no self esteem, that they are colluding in their own abuse, co dependent, anti feminist. I've seen the emotional blackmail pulled on these vulnerable women "he WILL kill you if you don't leave now" "he WILL abuse yor children" "YOur kids are already damaged" "the children know and it's your fault" "how would your mother feel if she knew you were staying out of concern for the family" "you're putting money before your children's safety - leve just with the clothes on your back or else" "call the police and report him even if that means he would lose his job and the family has zero income aside from that and massive debts".

Personally I think it's disgusting.

A huge gang jumps on the bandwagon and basically berate and emotionally assault an blackmail women who are extremely vulnerable already. When they do leave there is much mutual congratulation. When they don't the "support" soon turns to vilification as the people whose own mothers failed to leave transfer their anger and frustration onto this easy target and report their own horrible experiences to heap as much guilt as possible onto these poor mothers who are already torn in two with terror about the effect on their kids of both staying AND going.

I think it's the worst aspect of this place. And does unfold damage. Because for some of those women it's the first time they have admitted their situation. And may well be the last time after the treatment they got here. If they dared not to leave on mumsnet command.

"he WILL kill you if you don't leave now" "he WILL abuse yor children" "YOur kids are already damaged" "the children know and it's your fault" "how would your mother feel if she knew you were staying out of concern for the family" "you're putting money before your children's safety - leve just with the clothes on your back or else" "call the police and report him even if that means he would lose his job and the family has zero income aside from that and massive debts".

You have actually read those sentences and have copied them?

Women and men come here asking for advice.
They know what to do, really.
I wasn't on MN when I left my bastard, but I knew it had to be done.

Also, they chose to read the posts, to answer them and to keep the thread going.
They don't have a choice with their abusers because they are there on their faces, controlling their lives.
If you feel abused, you leave. Your thread or your oh.

The good thing about advice, and shared experiences, from women who have been there is that victims can see they can come out of it, they can protect their children and understand their point of view. And that it's not them, it's him (or her). Often causing the mental illness.

needsome I agree with you. I see alot of fact statementing (usually he WILL do this again) and what worries me is the amount of projecting done from posters. On one thread about staying together and not divorcing when just not feeling the love for her DH, nearly everyone came on detailing their desperately unhappy childhoods but most of them seemed to have abusive parents, usually alcohol. This was not a similar circ to the OP so wasn't that helpful.

Sometimes the anonymity of the internet is fantastic but at others, I wish one could have a more rounded picture of the person dishing out the advice.

My eyes have been opened to the amount of DV in this country, which, before MN, I never really realised. Utterly horrific.

"until they feel as abused by the so called "support" on this forum as the are by their partners."

The operative word is 'forum'. A meeting place of ordinary people with wide-ranging views. MN is not the Samaritans, a GP, counselling service or a self-help book. MN members do not know the ins and outs of the poster's circumstances, just the few lines they've typed up. MN members have a few lines in which to respond. The response on a forum is always, therefore, going to be brief and to the point. If someone posts that they have been violently attacked by their partner and are cowering in their home waiting for them to come back and 'what should I do?'... a fancy-pants author of a self-help book might say 'give him your time' or some such, but an ordinary human being with ordinary feelings will say 'bolt the door and call the police'. If that same OP then does the opposite, they have to expect fairly blunt reactions.

I think the honesty - even if it might be extreme at times - and the wide range of opinions is exactly what people expect from this forum and why they value it. When my relationship hit the skids the friend with the advice I valued most was not the one saying 'he's a great guy really', 'go to marriage guidance' or 'give him some time'.... it was the one saying 'if you let that bastard back through the door, I'll kill him myself'.

That isn't true though soso. I was on that thread, I was one of the people. My aunt and uncle were the example I gave and there was no abuse there, they describe themselves as best friends, my aunt did drink during the marriage to cope with being "together for the kids" and her religion. I just don't think you can say the situations are completely different because one of the points made is staying together for the kids creates mental health probs and drinking probs. why see it as "it was different" instead of these people are describing the consequences of staying together for the kids. People in abusive relationships often hide behind "the kids" or their religion when they are scared to go as well as those being genuine fears.

I haven't seen what needsome describes, not very often though, in fact i sometimes worry that the concept of the secondary abuse of children by the victim of abuse is just not talked about. I haven't seen needsome often involved in the threads either. The threads on dv usually involve advice that the treatment is wrong and abusive and presenting of the leaving as the best option, practical advice on how to do it, underlining when an op is reticent that they can still get help and support if they can't/don't want to leave.

I also notice that ABWN, soso and needsome are all women who are choosing to live with men who make them unhappy in various ways. I think it is silly to expect people wont draw on their own personal experience when advising others and I don't think you three are any different to what soso says about projecting. The "giving him time" choice just gives an excuse to stay and potentially stay forever with someone who makes you unhappy or treats you badly.

I've been without my nasty xp (and yes "leave" can still be good advice even if the partner is not a bastard just because trying to maintain a relationship that makes you unhappy and that you have given up on makes you ill) for 7 years, he still messes up my life because I have two children with him, but I wish MN had been in my life 8 years ago, would have saved me from a lot of the "giving him time" crap and a lot of pain and wasted life.

I very rarely actually advise simply LTB though although I think often advice about the existence of the choice to leave and how it is ok to do so or about not putting up with abusive behaviour can be interpreted as LTB and "mn says LTB" has become one of those MN things like "you'd Get different advice if you were a woman" whenever there are male threads. Hardly ever actually true but ingrained in MN legend. Either way leaving someone who abuses you is always the best option, in other cases leaving someone you don't love is a valid option and I think it is valid advice to give and rarely the end of the mumsnet support as is trying to be portrayed here. No-one has really presented a case for why staying with an abusive partner should be the primary advice....

*i have seen some of what needsome describes that should be.

usually he WILL do this again

There was a thread a while ago asking for people to tell of experiences where he had only done it once.

I don't think there was one.

If a man hits you, he will do it again, yes. It may take 10 years but he will.

Unless he was truly horrified.

But they rarely are, and certainly not virtually everyone that ends up in this board.

Yes most of those are VERBATIM examples.

So what?.... What are you saying that people should hold back and not give their opinion? That they should soft-pedal rather than shout 'RUN'?

I left the bastard, many years ago and there were no children involved but I had been in a very controlling and unpleasant relationship for many years.

I did a lot of what is suggested in the OP. I knew I should leave him, I always knew but the switch hadn't been flicked. One morning it was but I still had to plan my exit strategy. I did spent some time withdrawing, detaching myself emotionally, setting up a secret bank account and making plans before I did it.

I had an affair too which helped me. I know I shouldn't have done it, should have left him first etc but it gave me the distance and clarity to really see him for what he was which helped me enormously. It made me see how people really treat others they profess to love them.

So I took some time to leave him, I was cold and calculating with him and when in was in a position to do so, left.

If it's a circumstance with abuse or miserable children I can see the need to act more quickly but for me, it was exactly the right thing to do.

My view is that sometimes some people get frustrated with a poster for not leaving straight away. I think that for some who have been through an abusive relationship and left and are au fait with the signs and moving through it it can be really painful to see other posters still in denial or trying to convince themselves to give it one more go. Or others who can see it more clearly perhpas than someone embroiled in the middle of the crazy-maze that abuse is.

And then if the poster doesn't go the minute they start posting and saying to LTB some people get angry. Not all, just some. It just seems that often the speed of the posters reaction and process of leaving is not fast enough. For some advisors.

Having been through an extremely emotionally abusive relationship..well it took me ages to first of all figure out what was going on and slowly realising I wasn't crazy and yes I was being abused. From those realisations it still took me a little while to make the permanent break. I only posted after the fact (under a different account, three years ago, one I had to cancel after I was outed in real life by someone who knew me) and dealing with the aftermath, but I think if people had got angry and shitty with me I'd have just retreated into my shell and felt pressured to act before I felt ready.

I do agree LTB is a good counterpoint to the 'stay and work on it and give more and more of yourself' concept. But I think sometimes people need to understand it is not always an overnight clear cut choice, it can take a long time to go through the process of realisation and then action to change the situation.

Big difference from shouting run and following it up with "and if you don't run you deserve all you get and your kids will be taken away or you'll die".

Or "if you don't leave NOW you're abusing your children by putting them at risk".

Or "you're only not leaving because you're a frame queen who enjoys being hit because you can moan about it".

All of which I've seen implied or explicitly stated on here.

I've also seen women who choose to forgive cheating husbands or work on a poor marriage called "doormats" "asking to be treated like crap" "blind" etc.

I know it's a forum and opinions are to be expected but kicking women when they are down seems pretty off to me.

Some people yet angry with a poster....yes.........for not leaving straight away. That's one thing- and certainly true- through some really should. So that complicates matters.

Some tell you to LTB if the h has done something which they would not tolerate eg infidelity.

Or if they are not in any way abusive as such, but just pretty selfish and resisting change. Now, of course, one only has one life, and some people never change. Many men certainly dont, especially when they are protecting privilege, or struggling with habits they've had for years.

So it is a spectrum, both in terms of what the relationship is like, and also the extent to people can be bothered. In those circumstances, it is mad to stay if they are properly abusive, and people have to make up their own mind whether they can be bothered.

In my case, I am not suffering abuse, as such, but there certainly is a power struggle, and that's to get equality. I will get it. However, the practice I have had learning (with the help of books) to stand my ground, to not be derailed, to expect to get my needs heard and met, have been bloody useful, and will serve me in good stead wherever I end up.

I do see posters saying LTB over issues which can be sorted out. On the other hand, I suspect that people who get into these difficult situations have 1 difficult partners and 2 have allowed their boundaries to be eroded over years.

You can tell me if you want that all great men respect boundaries all the time, but I can tell you, I dont know that many!

Agreed it is only some posters and many are in fact very kind supportive understanding and patient. An that I the best bit of this place.

Words on a screen can be dangerous and damaging. People posting on this board are often vulnerable, damaged and lacking self-awareness and yes I would include myself in that. My counsellor in RL would not tell me what to do, so I would hesitate to tell anyone on MN to take such drastic action, even if it seemed glaringly obvious.

I have been told by posters on MN and elsewhere not to be a doormat, and basically that I have been pathetic for putting up with ill treatment by my husband. This made me feel like it was all my fault and I continued to feel powerless to do anything about it. It really didnt help.

"And then if the poster doesn't go the minute they start posting and saying to LTB some people get angry. Not all, just some. It just seems that often the speed of the posters reaction and process of leaving is not fast enough. For some advisors.

Having been through an extremely emotionally abusive relationship..well it took me ages to first of all figure out what was going on and slowly realising I wasn't crazy and yes I was being abused. From those realisations it still took me a little while "

WELL SAID, Sunday. 'Some posters' can see that they are being controlling and abusive as well...

Also, don't you think it is a little bit distorted, to be disparaging about the works of Lundy Bancroft if you have never read any of his work?

I raised SOME of his points, in order to support a debate I wanted to start: that LTB is not the only position, and it takes time to gain clarity and resources after waking up to the fact that you have been slowly sucked dry.

Not too sure why the reasonableness of this point is seen as such a terrible threat to people's stances, and why they have to be so extreme.

More recently, I have had a much more positive experience on MN. I posted a thread about whether my husband was EA or not. I got great support except from one poster who again told me to belt up and not be ridiculous. Other posters defended me and the negative post got deleted by MN.

'work on it and give more and more of yourself' - is NOT what Lundy Bancroft says! In fact, that extrapolation is the polar OPPOSITE of what he says!

He says: take the focus off the asshole and ONTO YOURSELF and use this time to gather your resources: clarity, friendships, support, networks, skills, ££, jobs providing he is not dangerous/violent

Sheesh.

I was on a US-based board at the time I was beginning to realize my relationship was untenable. At a certain point, it was the DTMFA posts (dump the motherfucker already) that really helped. All the posts making earnest suggestions of how I could improve things - I ran myself ragged trying to implement them, trying to find the right course of action that would fix things. In the end, hearing that things couldn't be fixed came as a relief. I could stop trying so hard.

In abusive relationships, you don't get stronger over time, you get weaker. You get less certain about what normal behaviour is, you learn to justify and doubt yourself. As pp said, the earlier you go, the less damage you and the dcs sustain.

Cogito, Lundy Bancroft is really woman-friendly and very worthwhile reading. There is no agenda to keep women with abusive men - the explicit point of the book is to help women understand how intractable these relationships are.

I don't think there is anything wrong in being strategic about leaving. There is a danger that you end up making excuses not to leave, because there is always a reason to wait just a little bit longer. But I don't think it's inherently wrong to say "Two more weeks till I get the new house sorted out and I've got the financial information I need" or "I'll be out before Christmas". But you need to set a deadline and stick to it. From my experience, I'd say to set those deadlines as soon as possible, because that period of being ready to go but not yet out is horrendously nerve-shredding.