'Leave the bastard!'

[Abitwobblynow]

Is the MN common refrain. In fact, it is presented as THE ONLY option, and MN gets very shirty (and some people can resort to nasty labelling) if the OP declines from doing that - straight away.

But is it the only option? Is it always the right thing to do, straight away? Here is Lundy Bancroft:

'There can sometimes be advantages to giving your partner your time so he can change.

You might use the time to construct a plan of exiting as safely as possible, with as many sound emotional and financial resources a s possible - this is especially important if your partner is violent or threatening, or has indicated that he will get financial revenge if you leave him.

With a dangerous partner, you might use the time to hope that he loses interest in you, so that he is the one to leave you, which can be safer.

Giving him your time might give you the sapce to become very clear about what is happening; going through repeated patterns can give you the opportunity to identify them, prepare yourself emotionally for them, and see the range of his ability.

Giving him your time can allow you to manage major life transitions, such as caring for infants or very small children, or dealing with a relative's sickness and death, with fewer disruptions than leaving might ential.

Giving him your time can allow you to articulate for yourself what exactly your 'deal breakers' are so you are more prepared to insist upon change, and to reinstate for yourself your standards and your clarity.

.., when safety is not an issue, can allow you to detach yourself from the intense care and responsibility for him, and reestablish yourself as a priority, even while in the relationship.
Giving him your time can assuage the voices in you that say 'what if', or 'I have to'... These voices can't be heard and these expectation met until you can meet them squarely and feel confident in your conclusions.

Giving him your time, if things are noticeably improving, can connect you to the love, hope and expansive feelings you felt when you first met.
... if things are noticeably imporiving, can afford you some of the acknowledgement and healing that you desire and deserve.

Giving him your time can help you feel certain of yourself as a person who has treid everything, who is committed to relationships, who believes in giving people a chance.
Giving him your time can give your children a chance to be in an intact family. (Of course, the costs can quickly turn too high for you, and for your children also, so be alert to when the costs start to outweigh the benefits).
Giving your time can spare you the pressures of having to go through finding a new partner and building a new life.

THE DECISION OF WHEN TO STOP WAITING FOR YOUR PARTNER IS A DIFFERENT DECISION FROM THE ONE ABOUT WHEN TO LEAVE HIM.

It is possible to leave your partner but remain attached to waiting for him. ... And just as you can leave but keep waiting, you can do the opposite: stay and move forward...

So I think here at MN we should honour the inherent wisdom of women who come here with destructive partners. Bottom line, I do believe they weigh up their options and they are doing what is best for them (whilst they gather strength, money, education, jobs - whatever the resources needed to move on).

I would argue that these men are not tremendous dads at all if they treat their female possession (this is what abusive men regard their woman as) with such contempt. A tremendous dad and a terrible husband is a contridiction in turn.

Good point, Attila.

Balls to that. I gave my abusive XH 7 years of my life - it took me leaving (and other life events) to force him to change himself.

Wobbly your husband is not a 'tremendous Dad' from what I've seen in your posts.

I really think some of you praising the self-help market need to look at the politics behind this. None of these books are designed for a male market readership and there's a very good reason for that.

Men wouldn't read them.

Not because they don't need help with relationships, but because they haven't had years of conditioning that men hold the responsibility for the health of their relationships.

Women are being conned out of millions of pounds in book sales because of that conditioning.

yeah...think there are self help books and self help books...some I agree are absolute dangerous rubbish...most are mostly rubbish with a bit of common sense and others are good sources of common sense which help when you've run a bit low on that.
lol...
If some help address endemic low self esteem re women and relationships then these are worth reading/recommending.

Cog, Where do you get the 'oh it's a man' from? He cuts them NO slack, less than the therapists who are focussing on their childhoods, etc (which he says is part of the problem: these men need to stop thinking about themselves and start thinking about the people around them who they have hurt. He says they DO need to get guilty!). He calls them on what they are: selfish, hurtful, immature, self-absorbed.

if you don't like 'giving them time', change it to giving yourself time. Because that is what he goes on to say: [give yourself time]

lets you build closer and closer relationships (nonsexually) with women and men in your life you care about, and stop holding back ... for fear of making your partner feel jealous... - his insecurity is his problem (unless he is dangerous of course).

You start imagining a life of which your partner is not the centrepiece, and you don't choke those thoughts or fantasies off. You perhaps even start imagining what it would be like to be with a different partner.

You put... less energy into your relationship, and rechannel it in other directions such as your work, exercise, or other interests.

You persue skills, insights, classes, or any other form of widening your life ...

You stop fighting the changes that you can feel happening in you... living in a different area, or by changing the kind of work you do; when you start to consider making some changes in how you are raising your children, ... you just sense that you are becoming a different person than you used to be - these are all signs of growth and expansion. People in relationships especially destructive ones, often stifle these signs of growth in themselves, because they are afraid of their partner's disapproval and they are afraid of outgrowing him or her. Stop holding yourself back.

You might be seriously considering leaving your relatiosnhip, or you may feel years away from taking that leap. Either way, the time to unleash your own growth and development is now

So Cog he really is kick-ass on the side of the hurt partner in all of this. And OMC I do believe you when you say she was awful to you.

Basing my life, my precious life, on a book someone who doesn't even know me wrote? No, thanks. I agree with Cog.

By the time people post here they're at the end of their tether. I don't think there are posts saying 'leave the bastard' who watches football all evening or who doesn't bring you breakfast in bed, or forgets your birthday... when you read advice to leave a man imo it's usually not bad advice at all. why stay with a man who's not valuing you? odd OP imo

sunnywithachanceofrain! yes, snap.... enough giving.

But this man's version of 'give yourself time' has the implicit 'whilst staying with your gobshite male partner!!!!!' I widen my life plenty thanks very much and, you know what, it's been so much easier to do that without him staring at me across the cornflakes every morning whining about why I'm widening my life.

I just don't think women need to be told to keep one foot on the marital life-raft whilst in order to grow and expand. They need to be given the confidence to cut loose, lance the boil, rip of the Band-Aid, excise the demon..... and properly embark on a new life, empowered by the knowledge that they got rid!!!

Yes.... it's obviously a man giving this advice. Talk is cheap.

Wobbly you know how I got time to work on myself, my hopes and dreams for the future? By leaving. So while it may work for some women to stay, it isn't the rule.

*You put... less energy into your relationship, and rechannel it in other directions such as your work, exercise, or other interests.

You persue skills, insights, classes, or any other form of widening your life ...*

I've started doing this due to my DP being very selfish, I've become more selfish too and less giving to him with my time/generosity as I was left feeling taken for granted. I've come to terms with his selfishness and just adjusted myself to it, as I really don't think he can change

Some of it is good advice, however...

I feel by the time many people post on here about their partners they have already given them months or years to become the partner they hope they will be. By the time they are posting here it is as a last resort.

In fact many of them post having already tried to turn themselves into the perfect stepford wife or male equivilant, slipper & pipe at the door, dinner on the table, not 'nagging', stockings/suspenders and gymnastics in the bedroom and their other half is STILL screwing Miss Jones over the office desk. Or their partner is dragging them around by the hair and calling them vile abusive names.

Many of the people post to ask what more they can do to change so their partner loves them. The answer is they can't. It is the partner at fault and bending over and taking it from behind is not going to change their partner's behavior or attitude to them.

This is why you often hear the refrain of leave the bastard.

Just my opinion.

I'd already spent years and years and years 'giving'. The problem was the more I gave the less he respected me, but when I stood up for myself it caused a huge row. Couldn't win. Is this nonsense a book written by a man? advising women to stay with men who make them miserable???

Many of the posters who write LTB have been through it themselves....it's not an easy thing to do...and it's not the kind of thing you would recommend lightly... it's expensive, emotionally draining, hard on the kids, disruptive for everyone, life-changing and just horrible in many ways.... but it's still MUCH better than being in a relationship with an abusive, controlling, aggressive, entitled...etc etc man...and can be a very positive move for people in poor relationships.

So so true. I spent about 3 years working up to it, wondering if I'd be able to do it, if I'd be happier, second guessing myself and my decisions and wondering how much you could reasonably expect out of life....... and then the second I left him i was free of all that doubt! I knew with certainty it had been the right decision.

It's not for everyone...but it's only advice, anyone can feel free to ignore it. TBH I doubt there are many who LTB because MN forums told them too. But there will be plenty who felt more supported to go through with it and felt less alone because of the forum.

You just don't get people on here saying 'MN said I should LTB and I did and now I really wish I hadn't'

Cheers LF! to you too!

LF, I often agree with ABW on this, in that I dont think one absolutely must LTB immediately, although I can see that most people when they say LTB, dont mean tomorrow.

Some posters can be a bit pressurising though, and on occasion I include myself- Ive often joined the LTB chorus, and may yet again.

On the other hand, I sometimes wish I had taken that route too, and remind myself on occasion that I still can, or may get have to!

It is really bloody hard staying on some days. And I'm not patient by nature, I dont think.

Tbh ABW, and I am NOT judging you, I dont think I could myself stay if I was sure it was over, although I could detach and hang on quietly whilst I sorted myself out.

Although I agree with OMC that some women are pretty shitty to live with too, Im glad the thread hasnt turned direction into a gender debate. The whole issue which ABW raises is an important one, and especially agree with this bit about noticing the negative patterns.

yeah, when I'm on those threads I don't focus on presuading somebody to pack a bag and eject out the window with a cup of tea half drunk...., but rather, to encourage a shift in their thinking so that they realise believe their partner is not treating them well or his behaviour isn't normal......and that they have choices.

I think one of the problems with lapping up advice like this is it's easy to convince yourself that you're staying for the 'right' reasons i.e. to reinvent yourself, get your ducks in a row, create a launchpad for a better single life....yada yada.

When the truth is you're mutually co-dependent in an extremely toxic relationship, will never give up hope of the other one 'changing' and have absolutely no desire to stand on your own two feet.

Meanwhile, the people who suffer because of this sheer selfishness are children who can't wait to leave home and escape from the madness.

Whilst you, Beth, are so full of yourself and your own opinions that you believe you can diagnose the answer to everyone's problem after you've read 3 paragraphs about their lives.

...and the only one with the ability to recognise codependency.

Even your language is telling.....'lapping up', yada, yada'.

Really, it sounds to me as though there are a few issues in your cupboard you could sort yourself.

Oh everyone has got 'issues' of one sort or another- no-one stops learning how ever old they get, so if that was intended offensively, it didn't hit the spot.

The whole premise of the OP seems to be to persuade posters to collude with women staying in relationships that are evidently harmful to them and their children, adducing evidence from a self-help book to back up this request.

I'm saying 'no way' to that and make no apologies for it.

"evidently harmful".

That's the problem. The evidence is thin, and not evidence based at all.

Fiventhree have a think about what you're arguing here.

Are you saying that when people post here about their miserable relationships and failing mental health- sometimes over numerous threads- and tell us that they want to stay put, that respondents should collude with that choice?

None of us has got any more 'evidence' than what posters choose to share, but we are asked to give an opinion or offer advice nevertheless.

This forum would be pointless and anodyne if it was full of posters who murmured 'well you must know best, dear'. As parents we would also be selling children short if we supported posters staying in relationships that are violent and/or emotionally abusive.

Having seen your usually wise counsel on other threads, where you respond just like everyone else to the evidence presented, I'm sure that's not something you'd advocate.

If anything I've said has touched a nerve with you and caused you pain, I'm sorry about that. But if that's true, it might be worth pausing for a moment to think why, instead of attacking the messenger?

I'm another one who thinks that the regular MN advice to get rid of an unsatisfactory man is actually a very important counter to the amount of 'Work at it, think of the children, obey more, suck cock more' advice women are generally given.
Sometimes, when the woman neither lives with the prick nor has DC with him, it's definitely good to say 'Just tell him to fuck right off and never come back'. Because life is too short to waste it running around after a man who isn't nice.

Yes...and no-one in RL will tell you to LTB because they are all worried that if they do you will tell the bastard that they hate him and once you've decided to stay with the bastard, you will stop inviting them to dinner parties...God I'm so middle class!