'Leave the bastard!'

[Abitwobblynow]

Is the MN common refrain. In fact, it is presented as THE ONLY option, and MN gets very shirty (and some people can resort to nasty labelling) if the OP declines from doing that - straight away.

But is it the only option? Is it always the right thing to do, straight away? Here is Lundy Bancroft:

'There can sometimes be advantages to giving your partner your time so he can change.

You might use the time to construct a plan of exiting as safely as possible, with as many sound emotional and financial resources a s possible - this is especially important if your partner is violent or threatening, or has indicated that he will get financial revenge if you leave him.

With a dangerous partner, you might use the time to hope that he loses interest in you, so that he is the one to leave you, which can be safer.

Giving him your time might give you the sapce to become very clear about what is happening; going through repeated patterns can give you the opportunity to identify them, prepare yourself emotionally for them, and see the range of his ability.

Giving him your time can allow you to manage major life transitions, such as caring for infants or very small children, or dealing with a relative's sickness and death, with fewer disruptions than leaving might ential.

Giving him your time can allow you to articulate for yourself what exactly your 'deal breakers' are so you are more prepared to insist upon change, and to reinstate for yourself your standards and your clarity.

.., when safety is not an issue, can allow you to detach yourself from the intense care and responsibility for him, and reestablish yourself as a priority, even while in the relationship.
Giving him your time can assuage the voices in you that say 'what if', or 'I have to'... These voices can't be heard and these expectation met until you can meet them squarely and feel confident in your conclusions.

Giving him your time, if things are noticeably improving, can connect you to the love, hope and expansive feelings you felt when you first met.
... if things are noticeably imporiving, can afford you some of the acknowledgement and healing that you desire and deserve.

Giving him your time can help you feel certain of yourself as a person who has treid everything, who is committed to relationships, who believes in giving people a chance.
Giving him your time can give your children a chance to be in an intact family. (Of course, the costs can quickly turn too high for you, and for your children also, so be alert to when the costs start to outweigh the benefits).
Giving your time can spare you the pressures of having to go through finding a new partner and building a new life.

THE DECISION OF WHEN TO STOP WAITING FOR YOUR PARTNER IS A DIFFERENT DECISION FROM THE ONE ABOUT WHEN TO LEAVE HIM.

It is possible to leave your partner but remain attached to waiting for him. ... And just as you can leave but keep waiting, you can do the opposite: stay and move forward...

So I think here at MN we should honour the inherent wisdom of women who come here with destructive partners. Bottom line, I do believe they weigh up their options and they are doing what is best for them (whilst they gather strength, money, education, jobs - whatever the resources needed to move on).

1. MN doesn't advocate LTB NOW, unless there is violence and risk of harm.
2. If there is violence and risk of harm, yes it's the only sensible option.
3. Giving people time to change is often a sensible course of action, but it needs to be time-limited. If you're still there a year later and nothing has changed, apart from your own deteriorating mental health, enactment of abusive behaviour in response and your children's worsening emotional wellbeing, you need to get out.
4. Emotional abuse between warring parents IS domestic violence. Staying to suit yourself until you've got the courage/money to leave is selfish. Those children never get another shot at childhood.
5. I think you cherry-picked a quote out of context to support your own position/argument, which is unethical reporting.

'the explicit point of the book is to help women understand how intractable these relationships are.

I don't think there is anything wrong in being strategic about leaving.'

Why is this such a hard concept? keeping in mind the next part of that valuable, thoughtful post, which is: don't make excuses either.

if you make a rational decision to say that is fine, you have thought it out and come to conclusions

as was said "look honestly at their decision to stay, or stay for now at least, and work out clearly what it is that they gain from that decision"

in counselling my therapist asked where i saw myself in five ten years - i said well not with him obviously because of all the issues...and she simply asked me "why wait?", so i could think about that... t had not occurrred to me I had a choice while dc were young, it really hadnt... i needed my eyes opened and that is what happens so often on here.
(and lundy bancroft why does he do that also helped...)

that was the catalyst to think why LTB right then was the right decision.

when someone posts and someone says LTB - maybe it opens up eyes to the possibility, and just thinking that you have that option is good.

no one has to feel forced to stay with someone for them for the dc or whatever. we are in a modern world with choices.

if you consider those choices and make a decision to stay - well fine.
if that decision is made when you know you are with someone who is very abusive, physically violent even - well it may turn out to be a very poor decision.

1. You think is not good enough. You haven't read the book. You are in no position to judge what is cherry picking or not. Retract that statement.

Nope.

No retractions from me.

When I read a book review, I have faith in some reviewers more than others and just like everyone else, am entitled to hold and state that opinion.

FWIW I always encourage people to inform themselves about their options and rights in preparation for making a decision.

Anyone who has ever come across my advice post will know that I don't advocate walking out unprepared - unless there is violence or threats of violence when I do think it's better to get out and to safety sharpish.

I think there's a lot of talking at cross-purposes here...

Cestlavielife has just put into words what I wasn't able to.

Why so angry abitwobbly? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

I read Lundy and I didn't think it was a masterpiece to be fair.

I am angry because somebody called me 'unethical'. In my field of work this is a HUGE slander and can result in prosecution.

I have also been accused of sinister cut-and-paste jobs - simply because I am disagreed with.

What happened to the old-fashioned 'I disagree with your point, because of the following points'? As opposed to character assassination and suspicion of dark deeds - that is what I object to.

Do you think it is reasonable to call someone 'unethical'? I don't. It is hugely unreasonable. At no time have I resorted to personal attacks. So why do other people. What is the point? We are supposed to be having a debate [definition: exchange of ideas for mutual advancement of understanding], not a war.

ABW, just wanted to say that I found this post really interesting and it put into perspective some things I had been thinking about. Thank you for posting!

Sometimes it is useful just to have a venting/btching session anonymously, and not have to feel pressured to LTB. Or to fantasize about LTB and take it to it's logical conclusion and see what that feels like. Of course some things are dealbreakers, violence, cruelty to kids etc but there's always context for arguments and what is helpful is to realize that it's possible to change one's own behaviour in response., ie behave like a doormat and be treated as a doormat, decide that you're going to not be a doormat and maybe life opens up some new possibilities in any case it's helpful not to keep it all to yourself, whatever the outcome. Interesting that there are so many on here with v strong opinions on the subject, and a wealth of experience to draw on!

I've read some of the books over the past year or so and yeah...they've given me names for things and some validation for my feelings/thoughts/actions/experiences of relationships etc....but not a patch on some of the invaluable friendship and generosity that I've had from ordinary MNers who take the time to pitch in with their thoughts, tips, suggestions and support.

The great thing about the forum is that it lets ordinary women turn to a bunch of other ordinary women anonymously and say 'hey...what would you do? Or what do you think?'. Posters respond to that saying 'if I were in that position I would x, y, z' often after asking for a bit more detail. One of the additional benefits of MN to just asking a friend is that often posters say 'well when I was in a position a bit like that I did x,y,z and it achieved nothing so I did a, b, c and that worked a lot better and I wish I'd just done that sooner'...some people call that projection...and it kind of is...but it's also shared wisdom.

Can remember some of my early posts getting fairly harsh replies 'are you really going to keep pandering to this cock-lodging twat' and, yes LTB, comments. Some of them made me think, some made me laugh, some made me think 'how dare she, what does she know about my life' but you know what....I did LTB, and I'm really not sure I would have had the courage without this support. You also see all the time on here...posters will pick up on the posts that they like the sound of. There's not that many where they don't know the answer already...but are looking for validation of why LTB or another course of action is the right on.

Sometimes I play a slightly perverted game I call Mumsnet-Lite. I go down the list of topics in Relationships and answer all the questions without reading the post:

• will he ever change?
• is this emotional abuse?
• is he having an affair?
• I've found the PC signed into a NSA dating site, is he NSA dating?

etc...

Sometimes there are real dilemmas...but as often as not it's about....I want to leave but need someone to give me permission that it's ok or I need to put myself first for a change but feel guilty about it...etc.

It can be frustrating when you start seeing the same people come back asking the same question....and it's....yes, LTB...we told you that 3 months ago...and you'd only been seeing him 2 weeks then..FFS. But more often than not the voices of the forum, IME, are generous, thoughtful and almost always supportive in their intent to the OP.

But Cogito the point I'm making is that this is how an awful lot of domestic abuse starts. The relationship may be well established, the woman is already highly invested in it, and then a first incident occurs is that is in a slightly grey area. The circumstances are a little unclear.

The woman, confused and unsure as to whether her partner even meant maliciously to harm her, posts on Mumsnet (after all she is injured as a result of his angry, aggressive behaviour) and is advised to leave immediately.

Perhaps you don't feel she would receive this advice here as the result of the circumstances I described, but I believe she would be. And I'm not saying that's 'wrong' either necessarily. Leaving is, after all, a perfectly valid option. He has hurt her and she has every right to end the relationship as a consequence.

I was simply asking, how many of us would leave under those circumstances? How many of us would have the "self respect" and/or be "good enough mothers" to just up and go?

But let's consider the next step. Six months later he comes home late and a little drunk after a works do. She complains that she has been worried and waiting up. An argument about his work ensues. This time he tells her she's "being a stupid, unsupportive cow" and slaps her hard on the arm. She goes to bed in shock. This is not the man she knows and loves. She does not recognise this behaviour. She is terrified her happy marriage and home life is on the verge of falling apart. The next day he is beside himself. He appears to show genuine remorse. He phones a counsellor and books an appointment with the GP. He promises to reduce his hours at work - he has been so stressed lately. He says he knows what he has done is unforgivable and that he couldn't be more ashamed. He says that if it EVER happens again, she can leave him. He cooks a special meal for the family and plays board games with his children all night. The children laugh and joke and wrestle with him. They all look so happy. And, she thinks, he does have a point - she could be being more supportive. Plus Christmas is just around the corner.

Again. How many of us would immediately leave everything we knew under those circumstances? How many of us would want to take our children away from their comfortable home and the father they adore, just before Christmas, to god knows where? What course of action might we imagine would be in the families best interests? How many of us might come to the conclusion that it was the right thing to do to at least give him a chance to follow through on his promises?

Women make the decision to stay for all sorts of reasons. And they often believe that they are doing the right thing.

TBH no-one's on here saying 'LTB or else piss off from MN and don't come back'
And posters have already made the point that unless there is a high likelihood of immediate physical violence LTB is short-hand for make plans to remove yourself from the relationship including securing safety for yourself and DCs, sorting out finances, seeking legal advice etc. TBH I prefer to say try to get the B to move out if possible rather than leave yourself if you can manage it but not always possible I'm sure. I'd recommend staying with the kids in the family home if you can. Again...that's based on my own experience not from a book or anything else...just worked for me and I'd recommend doing it.

But all of that is a vastly different scenario to the one presented in the OP- and by the OP about her own circumstances- which is about staying in a marriage for your own convenience after all rational hope for change and relationship repair has been lost.

Which might be a comfortable position for the generic 'you'- if not very safe for your mental health- but it's a lousy deal for children caught up in the middle of two parents who've checked out of their relationships and who are putting their individual interests first.

There's a difference between saying "You are unethical" and saying that selectively quoting something out of context which goes against the crux of the rest of the author's message is "unethical reporting", which is just an academic phrase. I think you've confused it with a personal attack, abitwobblynow.

It is different to the scenario presented in the op Beth, but I thought we were having a general discussion about the oft repeated 'leave the bastard' advice given to women who are victims of all kind of abuse, at all different stages.

You yourself seem to be quite clear in your belief that it is unacceptable for a woman with children to remain in an abusive relationship. You are, of course, entitled to that view point.

I was just trying to show that the decision to leave was an incredibly difficult one to make, and that lots of women genuinely believe they are doing the right thing by their children in staying.

Beth - what's your story?

I've read the Lundy Bancroft book, although not because I was looking for help to leave an abusive relationship. It is, however, a book I recommend quite a lot.

IMO it is the only book on the dynamics of abusive relationships that places the blame squarely where it belongs - on the shoulders of the abuser. It is a book that has helped very many women to realise that nothing they could have said or done would have improved the relationship and that none of it was their fault. It completely blows the co-dependency myth out of the water and explains clearly how abusers would still be abusive even with the most mentally and emotionally sound person on the planet.

I think the 'giving time' section has been a little misrepresented on this thread. Bancroft isn't advocating that a woman gives more time to her abuser to change. Far from it.

Anyone who works with abused women will understand that forcing them to confront the reality of their situation before they are ready will usually result in massive cognitive dissonance where they end up defending their partner to such an extent that the only solution left to them is to believe themselves purely at fault. Women who have experienced years of abuse with no autonomy of thought and no power in decision making are not able to stand up to a strong will. They will either run away (hence abandoned threads) or capitulate. But the collective will of a forum like MN is never going to be stronger than the will of an abusive partner that they share their house with and who can inflict actual physical harm. So running away it is.

In conjunction with this, leaving a violent partner is statistically more likely to result in death or serious injury than staying. Significantly so.

The 'giving time' section is IMO used specifically by Bancroft for two purposes:
(1) to stop women from feeling completely inadequate if they don't leave there and then, and to explore all the excuses they will give for not leaving or not leaving now, while gently taking those reasons apart and showing that they don't really apply. By the time he has finished this exercise, most abused women will be in a far stronger mental position.
(b) to help women leave from a position of strength, with vital documents collected, the police on standby if necessary, somewhere to go already lined up, and an idea of how future contact arrangements can be handled to avoid harm to either the victim or the DC. It is worth bearing in mind that even when a child has been directly abused by a parent, contact is still nearly always awarded, and in cases where unsupervised contact is given the abuser will often use this to continue to torment his victim - often by using the DC. Bancroft advises victims how to avoid falling foul of this, which may requires gathering evidence and using outside agencies.

SMB I'm not sure what it is you want to know about 'my story' or why you think it's relevant?

Fuckit I heartily agree that in the scenarios you present, many victims genuinely believe they are doing the right thing by staying. I think your posts present the mindset of people who are in shock and denial, very well. But perhaps the more relevant scenario is a few years on from the ones you describe; where the behaviour of the perpetrator hasn't changed or has worsened; where the original victim's emotional health has deteriorated so rapidly that she is becoming abusive herself; where she still has some lingering but irrational hope that the situation can be rescued; where her children are suffering and developing their own defence mechanisms in order to cope with the chaos in their home life. At that point I think it's irresponsible to support someone in staying, especially if she perceives no risk of physical violence attached to a decision to leave.

Dahlen thanks for your own summary of the book. That makes far more sense.

'5. You think is not good enough. You haven't read the book. You are in no position to judge what is cherry picking or not. Retract that statement.'

This is an open forum covering a wide range of topics. You are not a moderator and if you take issue with someone's comments or their tone then bring them up with HQ rather than ordering people around or accusing them of such an egregious crime as slander because you can't control this so-called debate (which reads more like an extended book review and promotion to some of us).

The Talk Guidelines are located at the top of the page.

Just wanted to know more about you and why you hold your opinions.

This thread is essentially about Wobbly justifying to herself why she hasn't left her bastard.

This after loads of complaints months ago, then setting a deadline to leave, which, as predicted, has been blown out of the water.

It's fine. Stay. Nobody will be angry at you for that. It's your life and your children.

It's just annoying that you keep starting threads trying to convince other women that staying is the way and that you can control it, etc.

Lueji in my mind you have probably hit the nail on the head there.

Wobbly, with all due respect I think you should give up ploughing this particular furrow. I'm sure you mean well, and I'm sure you're right that in some cases it is possible to find ways to stick with it and not LTB - as in your case, evidently.

However, I think the conclusions you have drawn from your own experience simply do not allow for the number of women who post here who have put up with months or years of disrespect and abuse before they can gather the strength and courage to post about their problems.

I don't think I've ever read a single post which refers to one problem or incident which comes out of the blue and has never occurred before.

It's usually one particular incident which drives them to seek help - which on the face of it maybe doesn't sound very serious at all - but then as questions are asked, support is offered, the confidence of the OP grows and the thread evolves, it usually becomes clear that it is simply the latest in a long line of incidents which indicate an escalating pattern of behaviour - which many women here will identify with immediately.

It is hardly surprising, given the statistics I quoted above, that many people who post here will identify with the experience of the OP and be sufficiently alarmed to urge them to leave.

The fact that you don't appear to have had that experience does not invalidate the advice of those who have.

As for the quotes you have chosen, I believe that you are wrong to quote them in isolation as you have. They should be read in the context of the whole book. Otherwise, you do not read it against the background of all the other information which gives you a chance to properly analyse the extent and seriousness of the selfish and destructive behaviour your partner is indulging in.

"Giving him time", giving chance after chance, is what too many women do for far too long - often at great personal cost to themselves and their children.

I would also like to add that your name says it, you are wobbling and very very angry and all over the place due to still being in what you're in.

In saying that sweetheart you have my support, maybe not my blessing, but my whole hearted support.

"It's just annoying that you keep starting threads trying to convince other women that staying is the way and that you can control it, etc"

But she isnt, Luiji. She is saying that it isnt always the wrong thing to do, which is entirely different.

I think it is very important too that she doesnt feel attacked. Why should you feel annoyed?

I think it must be hard enough in an abusive relationship to feel judged at home, without being under the kosh on here too.

Have a little sensitivity. WE may not be counsellors, but we can learn a thing or two from them about how to support someone in crisis.