A male thread I'm afraid

[mrguavafish]

Hello - a bit of relationship advice is what I'm after.

I am 33 years old, been married for 8 years - two children (sons) - can't get into that ds thing sorry (which seems to be code for sons I've worked out) - but my marriage is in trouble.

My wife is quick to anger and slow to forgive, getting annoyed for what I perceive as small reasons and then stays silent for weeks on end. I am into another cycle of this silent treatment now (week 5) and I think I've had enough. She doesn't speak to me during these periods, doesn't answer my calls or texts and when I am at home will pass messages to me through the children - 'tell your father this' e.t.c. The cause of this most recent flareup seems to be money issues - she keeps on parking in a private car parking area and gets fined £130 each time. I only mentioned it, I didn't even get angry - I don't tend to anyway.

I am at my wits end as to how to end these episodes. I even went away to climb Kilimanjaro in the intervening time (a trip booked long in advance) and I both went away, sent messages from abroad, and returned without her responding to my efforts to communicate. My approaches are friendly.

For the first time I am beginning to feel that there is no hope for the relationship, as these episodes are increasing in length each time. Do any of you have any advice?

My parents stayed together miserably for years. I got used to it, the constant sniping and disrespect, thought it was normal etc. When my friend talked about her parents loving each other I was shocked, I didn't think that parents actually did love each other. Looking back now, that is so sad.

They finally separated when I was 17, too late for it not to have damaged me and my siblings.

I separated from my STBXH because I had nothing left to give and our relationship was terribly dysfunctional (borderline EA from him to me). I did not want my DCs growing up with that as their model of what a relationship should be. Better to have one happy parent than 2 miserable ones. I am not saying that it has been easy, the transition has been hard but now the DCs are settled, happier, less argumentative/violent with each other. It was the right thing to do. Hard but right.

How would you feel in 10 or 20 years time seeing your sons choosing partners that treat them in the way that you are being treated? It's not right. You are worth more and so are they.

You've had a lot to process and come to terms with during this thread. I'm really glad that you can see this from the perspective of how it will affect your children, although of course you also have to consider your own happiness (and sanity).

I would say that you need to be vigilent if you split with your wife, for the dc sake. She will, in time even if she doesn't do it now, treat your children with the same lack of respect and consideration. They must be able to be open with you if/when this happens, so that you can step in to protect them further. You will need to be able to pick up hints from them, since this type of behaviour will be normal to some extent to them, so they may not realise what is happening themselves until they are older That may be harder to do if you are living separately, although you come across as someone who cares very much for your dc, so I am sure you will be able to do this.

Dear MrGuavafish

I have been reading your original post and the replies you have been receiving and something that has not been mentioned so far is, if your wife communicates during her silent periods with messages via her sons to you, could you write her a letter and send it to her via them ? How dreadfully unhappy everyone must be.

erm not a good idea Clare! Because that would be using them in the abuse. (I am resolutely calling it abuse, which is what it is).

re the scenario where you sons may grow up to be abused in similar ways: it is just as, if not more, likely that they will grow up to be the abuser, not the abused.

Dear MrGuavafish

Please ignore my thread - i've suddenly realized that I missed out reading 5 pages of threads, my suggestion of writing a letter to your wife has already been mentioned and I hopespringy has suggested to me it is not a good idea .
What a clutz I am !

Hi there,
i just want to add to what AgathaFusty said, as this was what I have been thinking reading your thread.
The behaviour you describe reminds me of my mother, except she would add explosive rages into the mix. She will treat the children the same in time, once they get old enough to move beyond her control. If you do nothing, if you carry on in this situation 'for the sake of the children', you will fail to protect them from what is also an abusive situation for them. How long before they too learn that they need to walk on eggshells, that they fear the silent treatment; that is before you consider that they are not learning how a functioning relationship works.
The children are fine because they don't realise that this is not normal yet.

OP - since you ask about the thoughts of children whose parents have been in that situation, I will answer but I strongly feel that the right answer for one couple is not the same answer for the next.

I am glad my parents stayed together. When my dad was dying, I saw how much my parents loved each other and needed each other, despite the rows in the days when small things seemed like big issues. Now that Dad is (long) gone, my mum's life is less than it would have been if he'd still been around. Its been over 10 years since he died and the grieving is over but its still a comfort that if he had to go, it was because he was forced to, rather than chose to.

I just wish my parents had both made a huge effort to sort out whatever it was that was making dad so unhappy that he would sulk like that because life is too short (and the sulks are part of my memory of him).

Do these sulking, abusive people not realise what impact their behaviour has on other people, especially those closest (and therefore most easily hurt) to them?

In the case of my mother, she can be charm itself to other people outside of the family whilst simultaneously ignoring my Dad, or myself as a child. Which shows that she can control her behaviour if and when she wants to. That to me makes this type of behaviour so much worse - the fact that it is deliberate and intended to hurt.

mrguavafish says that his wife often starts to speak to him again when she begins a sulking episode with some other family member, indicating that she is able to control herself as and when she wants to.

Perhaps the shock of really believing that she has taken this too far for too long will make her realise that she has to change, although I don't personally believe it will.

This is most definitely abuse.

Please don't leave the children with her? She'll end up doing the same with them.

Please call Mankind?

'Do these sulking, abusive people not realise what impact their behaviour has on other people, especially those closest (and therefore most easily hurt) to them?''

I think they definitely do AgathaFusty - that's why they do it. It helps them to feel in control and let everyone know they are not happy without actually having to risk a confrontation where they may end up not being 100% in the right.

I remember my sister and I taking our parents out for their anniversary a few years ago - even though our parents hate each others' guts, we have grown up feeling that we had to pretend everything was ok and normal so we were going along with the performance of it all being fine. Extremely weird, but we didn't know any better at the time. My mum and my dad were sat next to each other at the table but they spent the whole night almost with their backs to each other, talking to the other person on their other side. It was like they were strangers who hadn't been introduced. It was so uncomfortable and downright bizarre. I would have preferred it if they had politely turned down the idea of an anniversary dinner in the first place, instead of making everyone go along with some horrible charade.

How long has this pattern been going on ? When did it start ? How many times has she been fined for the parking ? Who paid the fines ? Does she work ? Does she have her own money ? How many hours do you work ? Am assuming given the two holidays mentioned, you are very secure financially ? Why is money such an issue? Why did you not take the broken toys back when she said she wouldn't ?
Just 'how' bad is your OCD ?

Your marriage sounds deeply miserable and your kids are going to be very damaged if it continues. It sounds as if it's gone past the point of repair tbh but unless she has 'always' behaved like this (and I assume that you wouldn't have got married if she had) then there may be areas that you could look at. 5 weeks of silence is excessive but I don't agree that human nature shouldn't allow us to sulk. I was in a very abusive marriage - something horrific would happen, Ex would breeze through it and then expect me to paint a smile on and pretend nothing was wrong. By the end, I couldn't speak to him. Because I was exhausted with the game, and any words spoken would have been the trigger for another attack.

I think giving someone the silent treatment is entirely different to not having anything/knowing what to say. The reason this described situation is abusive is because of the frequency, length and nature of the silence. The fact she enlists the children to give him messages means she is not doing it in a reactive way but an aggressive one to me.

I agree Offred.

Nothing about mrguavafish's story suggests that his wife is suffering from abuse at his hands, and reacting in this way as a defence mechanism.

I agree with the general sentiment here that you should not put up with this. However, you did marry her 'for better, for worse' and she is the mother of your children so before you make irreversible decisions, I suggest you try to get her to talk to her doctor; she sounds a bit bi-polar. I fully appreciate from what you've said in this thread that she is unlikely to listen to you but, personally speaking, you owe it to yourself, your children and your wife to try every option. Her behaviour is irrational and drugs (medicine) might help balance her emotions. My m-in-law shows similar character traits and DP and I are convinced she's bi-polar, although she won't acknowledge this and see the doc.

Perhaps you should visit Dadsnet.co.uk for more blokes' perspectives.

This does sound like very odd behaviour. Fair enough to have a bit of a sulk if your partner has annoyed you but not beyond an hour or so and to drag the children into it by getting them to give you messages and the like.. that's just not on. You need to have a serious talk with her, I certainly couldn't live like that and it's not normal behaviour.

mrguava my dad was like this when I was growing up. We never knew what mood he would be in from one day to the next and if he wasn't speaking, we walked around on eggshells hoping we didn't do something to make him explode. When my sister and I were younger (like your children's ages) we didn't notice these silent periods. We did however when we were older. My parents had lots of problems and lots of arguments when I was growing up and I do not look back on my childhood as a time of happiness ever. Even after my sister and I grew up and moved out, my mum would confide things in me that were happening at home. They have now been married 48 years. They seem more settled. I think life would have been better for everyone involved if they had divorced, but now that they've made it this far, as long as they are managing to be relatively happy then I would hate to see them split up at this stage in their life. My sister and I were determined never to be doormats to men having seen what my mum put up with so we at least came out of the experience with something useful.

Nobody deserves to be treated how your wife is treating you.

I am just wondering if you ever laugh together and have a good time as a family, the circumstances you have described which 'set her off' seem trivial so is there something else under the surface. I guess I am asking does she still love you?

MrG.., this has struck a cord and as I begin this might be long...sorry!
My mum used the same tactics with my dad when she was upset for some unknown reason...tell your father his tea is ready... tell your father... so my sister and I would channel the messages, my dad would not respond, he's definately not a doormat but I guess his strategy was it would pass, it may last a few days but can't recall it going longer. I recollect that this made my sister and I feel awkward, sad and worried about the state of their relationship. I didn't dwell on it growing up but it was a recognised part of our family dynamic. When I grew up I unconsciously did the same ignoring my boyfrien so he would beg me to speak and put him out of his misery, the more he asked the stronger I felt and a sense of achievement.. I was winning. My sister married and ..she adopted same behaviour, this was all learnt of course, her husband told her that if she was to carry on she could pack her bags and leave. We two had different responses from partners, my sister stopped and I carried on. As I moved onto other relatioships this was a behaviour I leant on as I found it difficult to confront and this was easier. Now with a mature partner he has made it clear it is unacceptable, he says I'm petulant. It has made me confront this part of me which I don't enjoy and feel ashamed, I wish I were different and am trying. I am better but I can compare boyfriends, those who were "weak" I walked all over and enjoyed the power and winning! with stronger characters I'm forced to re-orientate my thinking and find alternative methods, it's more difficult as I'm nearly 48, I wish I had been jolted out of it earlier, I wish my mother had not been a negative role model, I wish I had never witnessed this growing up and one of my biggest regrets is they way I treated partners, I thought I was better than that, maybe one day I will!

Hi Mr. G, re my post, to clarify, my parents wen't perfect esp. my mum, but they have been married for nearly 50 years and the silent treatment was a blip in an otherwise loving relationship and overall they have been fantasic role models and we their children have benefiited from them remaining together, they are rock solid. But I "inherited" this behaviour. Your wife may lack self-awareness and not realise the destructive impact this is having and vicariously punishing the dc, you will need to hold a mirror up to her or her to be startled and humbled into realising this.

As some of the above posters have said op, your wife treating you like this is about control and power. This kind of emotional abuse is terrible because not only is she punishing you but treating you like you are invisible, pretending that you don't exist to her in a very deliberate, systematic way.

And for your sons sakes, you need to take stock, take advice and take action. This is not healthy for them. And I sincerely hope that you have not shown this thread to your wife because you will just get punished more.

An update. I tried to talk, defuse the row, get her talking again but after a long think decided enough was enough. I said I'd end the relationship if she continued her sulky behaviour - still nothing. Then I consulted a lawyer and started things. I told her I was doing this - still no response and the ignoring continued. Then she had a letter from the lawyer telling her that she should get her own lawyer and she started talking again. Saying sorry and asking to start over again.

Last weekend was such a lovely family weekend - we all talked just like old times, went out to a children's party and saw a DVD. I realised I had to stick to my guns though and see it through. As if a mist was lifting really.

Then she became very communicative indeed, horribly so. Threatening to move far away with the kids and saying all sorts of horrible things really. I actually wished she would go back to her silent ignoring phase.

So that's it now. An irreversible course of divorce and heartache ahead. But ultimately for the best. Hopefully. Thanks for all the help though. And have a good Christmas all of you.

Cheers.

Mr. Guavafish

So sorry it has come to this.

Unfortunately, this type of behaviour is not surprising.
She tried to get you back by being nice and resumed the controlling behaviour.

The future can only be better.

Hope it works out. There are difficult times ahead but I think its important to try not to think of your wife as the enemy. Try and treat her well, despite the barrage of unpleasantness heaped upn you, mainly because you still want to see your kids and she will probably have the ultimate power over them.

she CAN'T move far away, if that's what she thinks.

prohibitive steps order, and contact agreement.

if there is a threat of alienation, and this woman is a straight up, common or garden abuser, a domestic abuser, then tbh, the children need to be anywhere in the world except with her.

structure your life and go for full custody.

this will be unpleasant, because she is deeply so, and harmful to be around, but when you've pulled through it, your lives will be so much better.

be strong. fight for your dc. don't condemn them to a life with someone who will teach them to be just like her.

she'll do the same to them, you do know that, don't you?

Do you know what? I think you have made the right decision. Nasty abusive stupid woman ( and I am describing her dragging your children in to her petty stupid sulking - what goes on between adults is one thing, but involving the children is abusive, stupid and cruel.)

Tell her to fuck off and make sure you have a GOOD lawyer, you need watertight arrangements for (at least) joint residence of your children