Why do women marry, have children with and stay with men who are ..

[beetroot]

Lazy and dont repect them?

I have seen it on Mumnset so much over the years adn it still astounds me.

you only get one side of the story on here you know

"Always struck me that the people Inow who go on about low self esteem are the ones who spend the most time navel gazing.

Anyway,if you have correctly diagnosed your 'low self esteem',surely the next step is to then raise it."

It really, really isn't that straightforward, moondog. I know I have low self-esteem - it is because of the way I was treated by my mother whilst I was growing up. Say, the first 20 years of my life. If you spend 20 years of your life being told that you are not good enough, by a responsible adult who knows you better than anyone else, the chances are you start to believe it. (Not always - dh was in a similar situation but his self-esteem remains high and intact!). I grew up believing this to be true, it's pretty well hard-wired into my system - despite 14 years of dh telling me that I'm not crap. I can't just "raise it" - I really wish I could. I know I would be a lot happier if I felt better about myself.

And yes, re. your first comment (and expat's follow-up) - I am sure there are people out there who use it as an excuse - that's true of most things - but there are far more people out there who genuinely have self-esteem issues and I for one would be mortified (and depressed) if I thought people were thinking that about me.

Fear and Guilt

That's a very good point Cali. The social dynamic on a virtual forum is very different to what you get in RL. For one, if you back out of a convo (before the invention of the 'parp' - still voluntary of course) no one would notice, whereas if you slunk out of a group without saying anything in RL people would think it very rude. Anonymous ranting is a good way to let off steam - Julie Burchill always did it for me

And I think it's a bit mean to say some people use low self esteem as an 'excuse' - (for what exactly?) but rather they may just be in the habit of giving up and giving in to it - 20 years of learnt behavior does take some beating - but it can be done.

A friend of mine is a cognitive clinical psychiatrist and he told me that it's one of the jobs of a therapist to hold onto that 'idea of hope' for the client as they aren't generally in a position at the beginning of treatment to hold onto it and use it themselves.

The trick is getting them to a point when they can think of the person they want to be (realistically of course)or believe they are underneath the depression and keep hold of it themselves and crucially to begin acting on it.

There will be hiccups and some crises, but to also remember that these are perfectly normal. And also to give themselves time - however long it takes but to think in years not months - and not count them either!

So basically time and effort - the two things popular culture tell us not to bother with.

beety, because the alternative is just too hard
low self esteem, laziness. fear of the unknown. upsetting the social dynamics. the kids! all can be reasons, or excuses. but i agree with the poster about the dynamics on mn beign different from rl.

mytwopenceworth - I completely empathise with your outburst, Ive often felt like saying the same sort of thing on MN. I admire you for sticking with your situation, and hope it works out better for you in the future.

In general, I really hate this villifying on MN of women who are stuck in bad relationships. They need help and support, not being told that they are weak and pathetic for not "putting their foot down" and leaving.
Why cant some people understand that there are men who you cannot "put your foot down" with, or they will just beat you up? Or that a woman should not be blamed because she is not sure whether leaving or staying is the correct decision to take in the best long term interests of her children.

I'm sure that I have moaned bitterly about dh on this website a few times. It's simply offloading. By and large he's a good bloke.

I think that sometimes women are guilty of being overly-optimistic. They think that love will overcome all, or most problems. They desperately want to believe that when a man sees his first child, he will be overcome by love and responsibility and a commitment to treat you both ( the mother and the child) well. And/or they feel that because they wouldn't dream about being unfaithful, that their partner wouldn't either. But sometimes you just pick the wrong guy, who is incapable of being the man you want him to be!

Havind said that i did leave him in the end, though it took 6 years... I learnt a lot including being very very cautious about judging someone else's relationship.

the very short answer, and the best one you will ever get to all points of your question (if i do say so myself [smug emoticon]) is:

People change, circumstances change, people dont change, circumstances dont change. People change, circumstances dont change, circumstances change, people dont change ad nauseum......

Thats it really.

MPTW - im so sorry you are having a rough time atm. Please dont leave. xxx

How true bluejelly. Once I was part of the smug happy families world and thought I knew everything. Now I am not. Its one thing to have a good rant about your partner's shortcomings ... but if you are still in love.... then you will probably move on and get over it. If on the other hand you have to think about whether to take the path alone or stay in an unhappy partnership - these are both painful and difficult choices and everyone's choice is theirs alone to take, there is no one or right solution.

In some instances, leaving a man who is lazy and does not respect you can be a good and strong decision which others should admire.

I would argue that in other circumstances so can staying with him be a good and strong decision which others should admire.

I would also argue that sometimes leaving can be an easy option and a selfish and self-centred decision.

I HATE the implication that women in what others perceive to be poor relationships are to be pitied for their lack of strength of character, self esteem or intelligence. Women can have all these qualities in spades and still stay. People in better relationships can lack all these qualities and still be in better relationships.

People in good relationships often think luck has nothing to do with it. So do rich people often think luck had nothing to do with being rich (it's all down to hard work, isn't it? Yeah, like there aren't plenty of people who work extremely hard and are still poor). It is a convenient viewpoint. And to all of those people I hope your ivory towers come tumbling down as you will be much better and nicer human beings when they do.

because when you put your foot down, youget trampled on harder.
because when you are living with him and dealing with his crap, you have a roof over your head and morgan stanly offering you credit cards for which the minimum income is 70k. even though you dont have the money to get your kids happy meals, you can get them tesco finest food.

because if you do leave, you cant take the kids with you, and you cant leave them either
because if you do leave, you will cause people who do love you so much worry, that they dont have to be put through. because its not a simple, if they love you they will understand. they will understand, sure, but it doesnt mean they wont worry themselves itno an early grave.

I don't think any big life-decision, whether leaving or staying, can ever be described as an easy option.

But I agree to some extent on the luck thing. Lots of people who have very good relationships, have them because they work damned hard at them. However, they learned to work that hard at them, from their parents, who also worked hard etc. etc.

Even knowing how to work at a relationship, how to show someone you're with respect and love, can be a matter of luck. Some people were just lucky enough to grow up in loving, happy families and learned how to conduct themselves in a decent relationship, which is what they expected to have, because they learned it from their parents. Others had to re-learn how to be happy, respectful and loving when they were adults (and some never manage it). The former group can sometimes stand back bewildered and mystified by the behaviour of the latter group because for them, it's bleedin' obvious what's amiss.

Well, I am a good example of a woman who upped and left a bastard (two, in fact). But it took me a long time and I think I only got out because a) I couldn't stand it any longer and b) I had a "plan" or no other choice but to go.

I think here on mnet, as opposed to real life, it is cyber advice, and doesn't take account of the real stuff like how and where one is going to live if you leave or chuck out a hapless other half.

I also think the whinging is great on here. Where else can you go when life is shit or you need to rant or just moan? Or you need advice from people who have done it - even if that advice makes you realise that you don't want to take it! The posts range from the desperately sad ones where life truly stinks and the "get a grips". But they all appear side by side.............

thats very true caligula. but also, there is the group that grew up not knowing what a healthy lovign family life can be, and are too busy amking mmoney to even see what they are missing out on, or what they are putting there partners and kids through. coz financiaal success is the only measure of success to them.
so what if they bleeding woman has a coughing fit so bad her son is about to call an ambulance. its not improtant enough to even notice. what does she have to complain about. she has a bleedin cleaner whcih his mother never had. so whats she moaning about now

oh, and whats she moanign about when she is off to the gym now when i have to go work hard

sorry about the thread hijack. i am sooooo pissed at him right now.. and need to yell at someone., dd is being brought up by cbeebies at them oment. wonderful invention

I guess it comes down to having a space to rant (here) and keeping it together (rl). But whatever we choose to actually do and however hard carrying it out is it is better to do something than nothing at all.

I am another one who feels angry at this thread title and original question, being in a dodgy relationship myself.

I can see how hard it would be though, if you have a happy loving stable marriage to appreciate why any other woman would have to settle for less than you. But until you have been in this situation you will never know. Look at all the women who stay with cheating husbands. I can easily say 'my god is she mad - he would be kicked out straight away' but I have never been in that situation so I can't say what I would do.

The women who can't understand the reasons for staying in an unhappy relationship are very lucky and there are no easy reasons to give for staying in bad relationships.

To leave a relationship is a surreal, terrifying process especially if your partner is happy to stay in the relationship and you are not. It is not an easy thing to do with childfren involved and often takes a hell of a long time for the woman to feel strong enough to leave/make him leave, especially if the husband is controlling/in denial about state of realtionship...............

It's fascinating how quick women are to blame each other for situations where it is the men who are often ( though not always) at fault...

I just thought the title and the initial post was very patronising and ignorant (though admit to not having read entire threaad...)

stitch - sorry you are feeling so bad. don't know what else to say really. But just wanted to say something. If that makes sense, me having not really said anything...

well maybe you shoudl then peacockblue...(read some of the thread) I have learnt alot through very intersting and thoughtful posts.

Have already said perhaps my thread title was slightly misleading.

{will jsut go for a wonder around my ivory tower now ) NOT!

I said I haven't read the entire thread, and its great you have learnt a lot from others posts. Good for you!!!! Enjoy your wander.