Just had a Big Talk with dh about his drinking and other issues.

[bushymcbush]

I told him that if he chooses to continue drinking we will have to split up because I choose to no longer live my life in misery.

We've been here before and he usually makes a token effort to cut down (never stop altogether ) for a short time - a couple of weeks maybe - then reverts to drinking at least a bottle of wine by himself every night. Sometimes more.

Before some of you tell me that it's not that much and what's the problem, I should add that he does this even though we have very little money coming in right now and 2 dc to support. He really struggles to not drink. I don't want to spend time with him when he is drinking and I don't want to have sex with him when he is drinking, so it's a massive barrier to us enjoying our relationship. I no longer go back downstairs after putting the dc to bed but prefer to stay upstairs in 'my' space while he remains downstairs with his wine in front of the telly in 'his' space. That's not a marriage I can bear to be in any longer.

Other issue is his being out of work and doing almost nothing to get work. He has had some freelance stuff this month but he didn't seek it out, it came to him. We desperately need him to be earning money or we may not be able to put food on the table next month (yet he still spends minimum £50 week on booze rather than save for next month).

I suggested to him that the two things (drinking and lack of motivation / direction) might be linked but he doesn't think they are. To be fair, he has been drinking like this for 20 years (I know, I was stupid for marrying him and irresponsible for having children with him - please don't say it, it's never that simple and I can't change that now) but he had plenty of work until 2 years ago. But now the work he does has dwindled to nothing (because of the industry he is in) he just sits and waits for something to happen and complains that he doesn't know what he wants to do with his life. In 6 months he has applied for 3 jobs. Not bloody good enough.

So he said tonight he will 'do something about' the drinking and I suggested he needs some kind of help with that or we'll be back at square one very soon and I won't go back to square one again.

He said he wont drink tomorrow night and we'll talk again.

I'm posting this as a record for myself of what's happening because I'm determined that this time, things will get properly and permanently sorted or its the end of the road. Also, I'm posting for hand holding and support, and to ask you to kick me up the arse if I let things slide. I don't want to live like this any more and I don't want my dd's growing up with it either.

If you've read this far, thank you.

Thank you tibpot. Been a tough time, but DD and I are getting on with rebuilding things now.

Sadly, it's only now that my home isn't dominated by alcohol issues that I am able to see things a bit more clearly. When you are actually living with it on a day to day basis it is really difficult to see the wood for the trees.

Someone on this thread said how sad it was how often this issue featured on mumsnet. I couldn't agree more.

Trib, thank you for those really useful links. I will be exploring them in more detail.

Newstarticus, thank you for sharing your story. It's very interesting that you stayed with your DH but now wish you had left earlier because you think it might have made him change. I will bear that in mind. And yes, you're right that I protect my dc from the effects of his drinking. And my biggest fear is that he passes on his warped relationship with alcohol to them - as he always claims it was passed on to him by his parents.

Dozer, I take your point about me putting off leaving indefinitely. I will try to be mindful of those kinds of excuses (Christmas etc.)

Fairenuf, nothing makes me think this time will be different. (although DH did say last night he thinks for the first time I'm serious about leaving him) It's just that this is MY last attempt before throwing in the towel.

bushymcbush,

Alcoholism is truly a family disease, it does not just affect the alcoholic but everyone and everything around him. It all revolves around the alcoholic.

If this is truly your last attempt (and I do not for one minute think your H will change his behavious towards alcohol at all) then you need to stick to that to the letter. No wavering or going back on what you have agreed with yourself because doing so will only slow your own protracted recovery from his alcoholism. You are as caught up in this as he is albeit in different ways but caught up in this you most certainly are.

There are no guarantees either re alcoholism - he could well go onto lose everything and everyone and still drink afterwards.

Its okay as well not to keep fighting for your marriage because he continues to put alcohol first and foremost in his life. What is he doing exactly to save his marriage apart from paying lip service?. Talk is cheap, its actions that count. To my mind his primary relationship is still with drink, from your writings I can see no effort or will on his part to change that state of affairs.

Alcohol is a cruel mistress.

Hi newstarticus,

I was also sad to read of your DH's passing. You have certainly had a tough time of it all.

re your comment:-
"A few years ago, I was you. I posted a very similar issue on Mumsnet and got very similar advice. Attila, you are absolutely spot on in your advice, even though I am sorry to say I found it difficult to take at the time".

That's quite understandable - I have had a couple of other posters write the same to me. Its okay.

Bushy

You cannot fully protect your children either from his alcoholism because they see and hear far more than you realize. They see the empties in the recycling, see you preoccupied and concerned, their Dad passed out on the sofa drunk, you having words with their Dad about drink, they see him not taking much notice of them as children, they see him with a drink in his hand. They also see your reactions to him, they are learning from the two of you here as to how relationships are conducted.

As they get older as well they may not want to bring their friends back home.

What legacy do you want to leave your children?. This is truly no legacy to leave them.

newstarticus I am so sorry for your loss x

although DH did say last night he thinks for the first time I'm serious about leaving him

Bushy why do you think that is? Why did he not believe you before, all those other times you have spoken to him about this. It's clear that he wasn't taking you seriously before. Maybe this time he does know you mean it. It's more important that ever that you follow through this time.

You set the boundaries. You decide how much you can take. Then when he pushes those boundaries, you hold firm. It will be hard. It will go against everything your instincts tell you. But being strong, being willing to walk away if necessary, will be the best thing you can do for him, for yourself and your your dcs.

'You cannot fully protect your children either from his alcoholism because they see and hear far more than you realize. They see the empties in the recycling, see you preoccupied and concerned, their Dad passed out on the sofa drunk , you having words with their Dad about drink, they see him not taking much notice of them as children, they see him with a drink in his hand. They also see your reactions to him, they are learning from the two of you here as to how relationships are conducted.'

Atilla, everything you wrote in that paragraph is true except for the bit I have struck through. But that bit is only NOT true because they are too young to be awake when he is that far gone. When they become teenagers, they will see it.

For a couple of people who asked, the dc are 4 years and 6 months.

He must be drinking more than a bottle of wine if he's passing out, bushy. Do you think you know the scale of his actual drinking, or could there be more than you think?

Hi bushy,

Your 4 year old in particular is becoming more self aware and will pick up on all this if he/she is not already:(. They see and hear far more than is realised.

I sincerely hope you are many years legally separated from this man's day to day existence by the time they are teenagers. They certainly do not need to see their Dad passed out on the sofa. At that tender age as well they will not likely want to bring their friends home either because of such an oppressive and destructive atmosphere.

FWIW I think he is badly underestimating how much he is drinking daily let alone in the course of a week.

He falls asleep on the sofa.

He insists that he only drinks one bottle, but sometimes I see him bringing in 2 bottles. I am certain that he never drinks a full 2 bottles as there is always some left the next day when he has 2 (because he falls asleep before he can drink it all). But then the next day he finishes that bottle and buys a new one too. A couple if times a week he also has a couple of beers earlier in the evening too. So yes, he does quite often drink more than a bottle despite his insistence that he doesn't.

So yes, he does quite often drink more than a bottle despite his insistence that he doesn't

Oh, my lovely, this is denial. How can he ever hope to change if he cannot admit what is happening right now.

To be fair to Mr Bushy, I don't think he thinks there is a problem, except that it is upsetting his DW and therefore he needs to do something about it for that reason. Hence the tough negotiation over the number of drinking days in the deal. He wants to drink (I believe) but he also doesn't want his wife to leave him. So he compromises.

Now, bear in mind they've agreed days, not quantities. And I suspect Mr Bushy knows that bushy doesn't know precisely how much he is drinking. Not to mention Drinker Logic "if I bought two bottles but only drank 1.25, then I can drink the rest of the other bottle without it constituting a breach of the rules cos I could have drunk it all last night". (No self-righteousness intended by this criticism - I could easily have made this kind of argument when I was drinking).

I will say, it is very hard to believe you are seriously harming your health, even when intellectually you know you are. I had to actually harm mine before I accepted it.

?fairienuff? Thank you for clarifing the question for me.

It is awful to see the number of threads relating to excessive alcohol consumption causing huge rifts and unhappiness in relationships.

It is heartening to see the support on here for bushy and so many of you sharing your stories.

Sending cuddles (are they allowed?) to bushy and others in a similar situation.

I thought my xH had reached rock bottom when he lost his job and, consequently, our home because of his drinking. I found us a house to rent and we struggled on for 18 months when he abruptly left exactly one year ago. We were about to be evicted and he had no solution. I was working 6 days a week trying to keep food on the table. He had found a job but the drinking was as bad as ever. He recently lost his driving licence, 4 times over the limit, but is still drinking. Nothing will make him stop.

Atillathemeerkat - that's the truest description of living with an alcoholic I have ever read. Scary.

I told dp last night that I was only with him because at the moment I thought that that was marginally better for the children but that with every drink that he had that margin got narrower.

I really wanted to hold things together for a bit longer, into the New Year at least, but denying the reality of things to myself and everyone else is doing me no good.

ArthurandGeorge I'm sorry you're having a rough ride. I know exactly what you mean about staying being marginally better. I keep thinking how sad and confused my 4yo will be if we split .

What was your H's reaction?

Silence .

Bushy,

re your comment:-
"I keep thinking how sad and confused my 4yo will be if we split"

I daresay your 4 year old is quite sad and confused now actually:(. I argue too that staying is not at all marginally better for them, how is staying actually marginally better?. There seems to be some other occasion to delay final separation e.g Christmas, New Year, Easter, half term, child's birthday.

Your 4 year old may well be seeing that his dad's behaviour and his mother preoccupied and worried all the time is his/her fault in that if he/she behaved better at home/slept better/ate better/brushed teeth better all this would not be happening in their world which is you two.

It is of no surprise to me whatsoever that January is the busiest time for Solicitors; after trying to unsuccessfully hold it together for the children for Christmas and the New Year many women have had enough.

I honestly think you and your children would be better off apart from your H in their day to day lives. They are however, still entitled to see their dad post separation and such a relationship could continue (until they may have a realization when older that he is really not worth it). You cannot go on as you are bushy, you are being dragged down by your H into his pit of alcoholism.

You and arthurandgeorge have a choice re your spouses; your children do not.

arthurandgeorge - you are correct in that denying the reality of things to yourself and others does no good whatsoever.

I think part of the problem (for me at least, can't speak for bushy and the others) is that my DH is very much a part-time drinker, and that for the majority of the time, when he is not drinking, he is a lovely human being. I always say it's like being married to two different men - one is warm, intelligent, hard working, funny, kind. The other is the drunk one. And even the drunk one isn't all bad, even he can be upbeat, extremely funny, affectionate. It's just that as the amount of drink increases things go downhill - but even then usually he just falls asleep. And my DH doesn't drink every night - like tonight he has gone to bed early as he has to be up at the crack of dawn.

So that's one reason why the stay/go decision is not easy. If the "alcoholic" part of him dominated it would be easy, but at the moment at least the "sober" part of him is the one I see most of, and that's the part I love, and want to be with. It's a cliche perhaps, but I still love him...

For example, we had a lovely weekend, we had a day out as a family on Saturday and also spent time just hanging out at home, having a coffee, some lunch, watching the x-factor. It was fun, and companionable.

It was just the bit after about 9pm that was less fun - and yes I ended up both evenings feeling lost and alone. That is the bit that spoils it, yes, but does it spoil things enough to warrant breaking up the family and all that entails? Maybe it does, but I still say it's not clear cut.

I was thinking about it today and thinking if my daughter were in the same situation as me, what would I say to her? I thought to myself that I would say life is too short to waste it with a man who puts alcohol before you, I would reassure her that the children would be okay and ultimately probably everyone would be happier once the actual separation had been sorted out. I can see all that intellectually, but somehow I can't seem to apply it to myself. I worry about how the children would cope, how he would cope, would he do something stupid, how would his mother cope (I am very close to her), how would we manage financially, all of those things. It's easy to look at someone else's situation and say oh she should do x or y, but it's not so easy to apply that to yourself.

Teeny weeny, that is how I used to feel but now I am increasingly feeling fed-up that I am rejected in favour of alcohol.

Tomorrow d has to take dd to school and ds to nursery. He has been out drinking and has left his car at the pub. I have no idea how he will get the children to school and nursery in the morning. I cannot bear to speak to him about it now as it will cause a row. Without him I would have simply hadco make different plans but because he is here I expect to be able to rely upon him sometimes. I can't because of his drinking.

Teenyweeny that's an interesting post. My sober DH is mostly lovely too - helpful, kind, funny, etc. (He can be pain in the neck too, but no one's perfect.) And because I actually avoid him when he's drinking, I mostly know him sober. However, as I've said up thread, it's a very lonely marriage when we spend our evenings in different rooms. Also what you say about the advice you would give your daughter is very enlightening. Its an interesting perspective isn't it, because it forces you to value yourself as highly as you value your children. I think I would tell mine to leave too. But I have spoken to my own dad a couple of times about DH's problem and he did not advise me to leave. (He didn't really advise anything tbh, just wanted to offer some kind of practical help like paying off our debts, which I refused as to me that would be enabling DH's drinking, to have someone else pick up his problems.)

ArthurandGeorge, that sounds like a very difficult situation. The best advice I can give is to let him deal with the problem himself. Drinkers need to face the consequences of their drinking. Unknown that won't stop you worrying though because it's your dc who are affected too. I hope it gets sorted out.

Update here is that DH is sober tonight. After putting the dc to bed I joined him downstairs and we watched something on tv together. It was nice. I nearly cried it was so nice to do something so ordinary together.

Teenyweeny, that sounds very much like my DP - he was a different person when not drinking and there were enough of those periods to make me still love him and want to be here.

Arthurandgeorge, sorry to hear your story, nothing worse than when the dc's come second best.

Bushy, i know just what you mean about nearly crying at a normal event like watching TV. Hope it continues.

My DP is back at the doctor on Thursday for a review. Next week he sees the rehabilitation counsellor again. Still going well here, sober since 18th July.