Just had a Big Talk with dh about his drinking and other issues.

[bushymcbush]

I told him that if he chooses to continue drinking we will have to split up because I choose to no longer live my life in misery.

We've been here before and he usually makes a token effort to cut down (never stop altogether ) for a short time - a couple of weeks maybe - then reverts to drinking at least a bottle of wine by himself every night. Sometimes more.

Before some of you tell me that it's not that much and what's the problem, I should add that he does this even though we have very little money coming in right now and 2 dc to support. He really struggles to not drink. I don't want to spend time with him when he is drinking and I don't want to have sex with him when he is drinking, so it's a massive barrier to us enjoying our relationship. I no longer go back downstairs after putting the dc to bed but prefer to stay upstairs in 'my' space while he remains downstairs with his wine in front of the telly in 'his' space. That's not a marriage I can bear to be in any longer.

Other issue is his being out of work and doing almost nothing to get work. He has had some freelance stuff this month but he didn't seek it out, it came to him. We desperately need him to be earning money or we may not be able to put food on the table next month (yet he still spends minimum £50 week on booze rather than save for next month).

I suggested to him that the two things (drinking and lack of motivation / direction) might be linked but he doesn't think they are. To be fair, he has been drinking like this for 20 years (I know, I was stupid for marrying him and irresponsible for having children with him - please don't say it, it's never that simple and I can't change that now) but he had plenty of work until 2 years ago. But now the work he does has dwindled to nothing (because of the industry he is in) he just sits and waits for something to happen and complains that he doesn't know what he wants to do with his life. In 6 months he has applied for 3 jobs. Not bloody good enough.

So he said tonight he will 'do something about' the drinking and I suggested he needs some kind of help with that or we'll be back at square one very soon and I won't go back to square one again.

He said he wont drink tomorrow night and we'll talk again.

I'm posting this as a record for myself of what's happening because I'm determined that this time, things will get properly and permanently sorted or its the end of the road. Also, I'm posting for hand holding and support, and to ask you to kick me up the arse if I let things slide. I don't want to live like this any more and I don't want my dd's growing up with it either.

If you've read this far, thank you.

But you didn't do it immediately and absolutely no-one could be expected to do it absolutely immediately. It takes time for alcoholism to become apparent. Some things happened and then you pulled your head out of your arse and sorted it out before anything terrible happened. Bushy has already stated that she has arranged with her family a way to leave, she has recognised how his behaviour is unacceptable and dangerous for her dc, I don't get the impression she is waiting for the dc to be harmed before she takes action either, she is giving him a last I believe ill advised chance to make a real change and if he doesn't I hope she'll be off. Maybe not giving up on him but recognising that they need to live separately because of the dcs. She is a. Not at the stage objectively or as far as the institutions are concerned where her children are at risk of being removed and b. not displaying any signs of being incapable of recognising risk or protecting her dc.

FGS guys, you've completely derailed this thread. Take it outside.

yes, Ive had my posts deleted
it wasnt a helpful part of the discussion

Um ... Ok. I think I'll ignore the recent turn the thread has taken, except to say that my DC are not in danger, nor are they neglected. I am their primary carer and I don't plan to leave them with DH anytime soon.

Quick update - no alcohol tonight. Mr B applied for one job, filled out the form for another (but wants to recheck it tomorrow before sending) and sent off for the form for a third.

Still hopeful and still braced for disappointment. It's good to know I have a get out plan. I'm considering sorting put my paperwork and checking my legal position in case of separation. Thanks to whoever suggested those things before the bunfight broke out.

Good luck Bushy. As someone said upthread 'hope for the best, prepare for the worst'. Get your ducks in order. See a solicitor. It must be hard to keep reading 'your kids are in danger' but I think you know where (most) posters are coming from - they are not calling you a bad parent but saying there are obvious risks and dangers about living with an alcoholic. And you yourself were deeply unhappy and troubled by the hitting incident.... x

Can I just add here that there is no such thing as an "at risk" register anymore.

There are now children and young people subject to a care plan, but no such thing as "at risk register" and hasn't been for some time.

This may or may not be helpful, but recent experience has shown me that people who don't have the correct knowledge can be absolutely petrified by terminology - unfairly so if the terminology being used is wrong.

Have read the whole thread and just wanted to add my support for you Bushy. You have my deepest admiration for the way you dealing with everything. I hope today is a good day and that it does work out for you. Stay strong and be good to yourself. One day at a time...

Thanks for all the supportive messages. I don't think I deserve admiration really - I'm just trying to deal with the cards I've been handed really. And dealing with them pretty badly probably. I'm still kicking myself for 'allowing' two nights of drinking a week.

No alcohol consumed in this house since Sunday. Three jobs have been applied for this week (a massive improvement on the previous 6 months). Buy I've felt the momentum with the job hunt slipping a bit today. My mentality is that if you haven't got a job, you should make finding a job your full time occupation. But that's just me.

Nope that's not 'just you' bushy

He has already broken the 'two days rule' hasn't he bushy?

Yes, he drank 3 days on the second week of our agreement. We had a massive hoo ha about it. He still can't believe I pulled him up on it because it was just one glass.

Bushy - has he told you how he feel if he doesn't drink? Does he feel anxious? Maybe he suffers unpleasant physical symptoms ((anxiety) if he doesn't drink and that's why he continues to do it. He can get a bottle of wine from Tescos for £3.99 and a week's supply would cost less than £28, so there's no need for him to spend £50. There's a good book called "Potatoes Not Prozac" which recommends a specific diet to help alcoholics get over their addiction.

Alcohol is itself a depressant; Bushy's DH is likely to be self medicating any underlying depression and anxiety problems with alcohol. He is also likely underestimating how much he is actually drinking to boot. He is also likely drinking for a whole host of reasons, many of which are deeply rooted and perhaps even go back into childhood.

Unless Mr B fully wants to help his own self there is nothing that anyone can do to help him. Bushy in her role as provoker/enabler is playing a role here in her H's alcoholism and is also stuck on the merry go around. It could go on like this for many more years too.

I can see why Bushy made such an agreement with her H but in doing so forgot one of the main 3cs i.e you cannot control it so such an agreement was anyway doomed to failure. He only lasted one week and that is no time at all. An alcohol dependence of many years standing is not going to be fixed easily, if at all.

The ball is very much in Bushy's court as to what she decides; he has seemingly made his decision to continue drinking. It is what she decides now that is more important in the long term for both her and her children.

BTW Bushy to your knowledge what is the longest period of time he has ever gone without alcohol?.

Bushy, where do you see yourself in say five years time - still with Mr B?.

Attilla, in answer to your questions - the longest he has ever been without alcohol is 10 days.

In 5 years - no, I don't see myself with him, to be blunt. When I read your question my first reaction was "Oh God, no." Can't explain why.

He is only abstaining through a massive amount of willpower though. Not through choice. He has such a long way to go if he is to kick the habit.

Every day he will be craving alcohol. Sometimes the cravings will be short and weak but other times they will be strong.

He only drinks to relieve these cravings. That is what an addiction is. There is no pleasure from the actual drinking other than the fact that it relieves those strong urges for a while.

The only incentive is that he knows OP will 'go mad' if he drinks so he will only attempt to stick to the agreement if bushy continues to police him. For the rest of his life.

That's why the 'one glass' is so pivotal. To bushy it's a flagrant breach of the rules. To him, it's a brief relief from his cravings, it's the addiction talking, 'go on, one glass won't hurt'. It's keeping him addicted.

He is miserable because he has to either drink and upset his wife, or not drink and be plagued by cravings. He is stuck in a miserable existence. The only way out is to stop completely. The only way to do that is to want to do it.

Drinkers who want to stop, learn to change their attitude. Instead of telling themselves they are 'missing out' they learn to love all the good things about not drinking.

They learn strategies to deal with the cravings and because they are so determined to never drink again, those cravings eventually go away. It is then perfectly possible to live a sober, drink free life and feel great about your health, your relationships, be motivated, have more money, etc.

There are loads of benefits to stopping but the drinker has to want to.

It cannot be forced on them. That will not work.

Ten days.

Not very surprised really considering he has had a drink problem for all the 20 or so years you have known him (and he has perhaps been drinking to excess for perhaps longer than that as well).

I hope you have now seen how futile your bargaining to him was. One of the 3cs re alcoholism is that you cannot control it.

As I have stated previously the ball is very much in your court. You have the keys to your own future and that of your children very much in your hands.

I asked where you think you will be in five years time, still with Mr B. You replied oh god no. However, why do you think you then wrote can't explain why?. That is something for you to think further about.

You have a choice re him at the end of the day Bushy. Your children do not.

Btw bushy it's interesting that he negotiated the two days drinking rule because he has immediately grabbed himself some drinking time each week, without really thinking about why you want to minimise his drinking and what affect it's been having on his relationships.

There is nothing to stay you have to stick to the rule. You can tell him that, having had a rethink, you are convinced that he is addicted and that he should give it up altogether. Then see what his reaction is.

He will fight tooth and nail to keep those two days. He will give lots of reasons such as he is sticking to the two days, he is applying for jobs, he is functioning, things are getting better, you are expecting too much too soon, etc. but putting all those aside, it shows his intention to continue to drink with you policing him.

Or he could stop completely and go to an aa meeting the same day.

If he refuses to stop completely (which tbh is a difficult notion for anyone with a drink problem) try telling him that if he had to choose between stopping and you staying, or continuing and you leaving, which one would he choose and see what he says.

Attila, just interested in your opinion really. If alcoholism is so difficult to "cure", is there any hope for anyone married to an alcoholic? Can someone who is an alcoholic ever really get over it? What is the answer, is AA really the "only" solution? Or do other strategies have their place. Just curious I guess.

Actually I think the night where Mr Bushy had only one glass is far more significant than this - because I think in his mind, as it would in mine when I was drinking, the fact he only had one glass proves he is not an alcoholic. He can drink and stop. Therefore it was a useful experiment to demonstrate so (and please accept this is addict logic) better than having no drink at all. And therefore bushy should be pleased he had that drink, instead of kicking off about it.

teeny - there are alternatives to AA although many are based on similar 12-step programmes. The book I've mentioned several times has some details. But there is very little point in you reading up on them, to be honest. If your H was interested in quitting he could read about the options available to him and choose one that seemed to suit him best.

It is my view that alcoholism cannot be cured. I am relatively new to recovery but I still think about drinking every day. I actually don't go to AA, not because I think I can 'do it alone' - all my friends, family and close colleagues know about my situation, and I think that 'willingness to admit you have a problem' as AA put it is absolutely vital. But so far I haven't needed that kind of external support.

I think there is a possibility that if I was completely rigid and never let my guard down I could have one drink once a year. Maybe. But I would have to be so tense and watchful that I would never be able to enjoy it. So what's the bloody point of that? It is not easy but it is much much easier not to drink than it is to control drinking.

Anyway, Atilla's right, bushy. Take some time to think about the strength of your reaction to her question. I think you're in survival mode, just getting through each day as it comes. Which is quite understandable. Take a moment to look back and look ahead. And wonder why you don't like what you see.