Just had a Big Talk with dh about his drinking and other issues.

[bushymcbush]

I told him that if he chooses to continue drinking we will have to split up because I choose to no longer live my life in misery.

We've been here before and he usually makes a token effort to cut down (never stop altogether ) for a short time - a couple of weeks maybe - then reverts to drinking at least a bottle of wine by himself every night. Sometimes more.

Before some of you tell me that it's not that much and what's the problem, I should add that he does this even though we have very little money coming in right now and 2 dc to support. He really struggles to not drink. I don't want to spend time with him when he is drinking and I don't want to have sex with him when he is drinking, so it's a massive barrier to us enjoying our relationship. I no longer go back downstairs after putting the dc to bed but prefer to stay upstairs in 'my' space while he remains downstairs with his wine in front of the telly in 'his' space. That's not a marriage I can bear to be in any longer.

Other issue is his being out of work and doing almost nothing to get work. He has had some freelance stuff this month but he didn't seek it out, it came to him. We desperately need him to be earning money or we may not be able to put food on the table next month (yet he still spends minimum £50 week on booze rather than save for next month).

I suggested to him that the two things (drinking and lack of motivation / direction) might be linked but he doesn't think they are. To be fair, he has been drinking like this for 20 years (I know, I was stupid for marrying him and irresponsible for having children with him - please don't say it, it's never that simple and I can't change that now) but he had plenty of work until 2 years ago. But now the work he does has dwindled to nothing (because of the industry he is in) he just sits and waits for something to happen and complains that he doesn't know what he wants to do with his life. In 6 months he has applied for 3 jobs. Not bloody good enough.

So he said tonight he will 'do something about' the drinking and I suggested he needs some kind of help with that or we'll be back at square one very soon and I won't go back to square one again.

He said he wont drink tomorrow night and we'll talk again.

I'm posting this as a record for myself of what's happening because I'm determined that this time, things will get properly and permanently sorted or its the end of the road. Also, I'm posting for hand holding and support, and to ask you to kick me up the arse if I let things slide. I don't want to live like this any more and I don't want my dd's growing up with it either.

If you've read this far, thank you.

Just had a row. Not about drinking - about work.

DH's main source of income is supply teaching. There has been very little work through his agency for the past couple of years (government changed laws so schools need less supply teachers). So I've been suggesting for over a year now that he applies to join the Local Authority list of supply teachers as he is more likely to get work directly from them than through his private agency.

So this morning, first day of new school year, he has been up since 7am, made dd's breakfast (although I got her up, dressed, hair done etc and got the baby up and dressed too) and held the baby while I took dd to school. It's now almost 10 and he is not dressed, has spent most of the morning so far on facebook, Internet and playing Angry Birds .

So I asked him if he's got stuff to do. Yes, he says, he has some work to do on his part time business (not a main source of income, very part time). I asked if he was going to apply to Local Authority list, he got immediately angry, said yes, and to stop asking him. I said I have to ask because he's not doing it himself. He said "To be honest, I don't want to work in our home town because I hate it when kids I've taught recognise me and say hello in the street."

So I guess that means he has no intention of joining the local supply service then.

He walked out of the room in a big huff, calling himself a 'hen pecked twat' and is now wasting time (IMO) doing his business. It's not that I think his business is a waste of time - I don't - it's just that it shouldn't be take priority over securing an actual bloody income, when we are really struggling to survive. The school year has begun, he needs to find some work.

But he clearly has no intention of finding work.

This is the other dealbreaker for me. He has a family and he should be doing whatever he can to provide for his children. But he's not.

And he won't either bushy because alcohol is first and foremost in his life. Its his primary relationship. He still keeps faffing about and wasting time and he will continue to do so. Apart from all the damage this is doing to you is this really what your childrens' home and their life there should be like?. FWIW to my mind he does not give a toss about you, his job (he was messing around with designing business cards the other day wasn't he?), his marriage or anything else actually. Just his next drink and where that is going to come from.

Teeny and your good self are still on that merry go around that is alcoholism.
I am not shaking my head at Teeny; tbh I am not altogether surprised she is still with her alcoholic H. Its an unhealthy shared codependency that also keeps such couples together, that and denial and hoping against hope often on the woman's part that the situation will somehow change for the better (which it ultimately does not because he is still drinking and whilst that is happening the same old same old dysfunction continues). No-one benefits from being in an abusive relationship.

Quoting myself: '[dad] didn't really advise anything tbh, just wanted to offer some kind of practical help like paying off our debts, which I refused as to me that would be enabling DH's drinking, to have someone else pick up his problems.'

Just realised that I am enabling DH in this way too because I am the one dealing with all our debt - writing to creditors every month, sending cheques, phoning people - even for debts that are in his name alone. I've picked up his debt problems. The one thing I asked him to do (set up a standing order to one of our creditors) he actually failed to do, so that debt was passed on to a debt collection company and I've had to start negotiations all over again.

Fuck. I really am an enabler.

'No-one benefits from being in an abusive relationship.'

Struggling to see how it's abusive but willing to be enlightened.

He is abusing alcohol and by turn everyone and everything around him.
Alcohol is a common feature in abusive relationships, so if your partner is an alcoholic you might have to deal with erratic mood swings and unpredictable behaviour, arguments and aggression.

So how do you confront a partner about their drinking? (when it is often a very touchy subject) Usually, people learn to avoid the issue, simply changing the subject when it comes up. And so the situation continues for years, unless you decide to address it.

But quite often each person may be so afraid of loneliness, or have such low self-esteem that they believe themselves unlovable, that no-one else would have them, that they couldn?t survive alone. This co-dependency makes people tolerate more than they should have to, in order to stay together.

The abuse of alcohol might affect your relationships in many ways. But those same close relationships are often the ones that can perpetuate alcoholism. A dysfunctional marriage can be so much stress for anyone involved.

What is the difference between those who walk away from an abusive alcoholic at the first sign of trouble and those who cling to them?. There may be no black-and-white answers, but here are some characteristics that seem to be common to those who can't just walk away:

Low Self-Esteem -- For whatever reason, those in abusive relationships usually have a very low opinion of themselves. They may think they are unattractive, or too overweight, or not smart enough. Consequently, they hold on to their present relationship, because they believe that no one else would ever want them. They think it's the only relationship they will ever have.

Abandonment Issues Perhaps they were abandoned by a parent in childhood and the loss was traumatic. They go through life trying to avoid feeling that way again. They hang on because being in an abusive relationship is better than being left alone their greatest fear.

Need to be Needed -- They confuse pity with love. All of their relationships are with people who "need" them or are dependent on them in some way. They are rescuers. They don't leave the relationship because they think the alcoholic could not survive without their help.

Controlling They have a strong need to be in control. They take on responsibilities that do not belong to them paying the bills, repairing the house, mowing the lawn -- because those things just would not get done without them. They may complain about the alcoholic's lack of responsibility in these areas, but many times the truth is they would have it no other way because it satisfies their need to be needed.

No Boundaries -- They have trouble setting personal boundaries, standing up for themselves. They have a problem saying "no." They may try to set boundaries, but then feel guilty and allow those lines to be crossed, which usually causes more problems in the relationship than never having set the boundary in the first place.

Addicted to Excitement -- Many who are involved in alcoholic relationships find that they are attracted to the excitement, the chaos, the uncertainty, and even the crises. They cannot stand to be bored. They would find "normal" people terribly dull. In times of relative calm, sometimes they will even create a crisis, just to avoid boredom. For them, life must be a constant soap opera.

Acceptance Seeking -- Since many who end up in alcoholic relationships grew up in alcoholic homes themselves, they are comfortable with alcoholics because they know they will not be judged. Many are attracted to alcoholics in the first place because that is behavior that they are used to and most comfortable being around.

Martyr Complex -- There are those who seem to enjoy being in the role of a martyr, a perpetual victim, for some psychological reason. They enjoy the sympathy they receive when they tell their friends the suffering they have to endure as a result of the alcoholic's behavior. These martyr personalities seem to have the most problems if the alcoholic seeks treatment and finds sobriety.

Hiding Out -- As long as they have the alcoholic's behavior to focus upon, it takes the spotlight off of their own shortcomings. If they can point the finger at the alcoholic and blame all of the family's problems on his behavior, no one notices the part they are playing, including themselves sometimes. They are "safe" in the relationship because they can hide their own flaws behind the many mistakes of the alcoholic.

NOT everyone in an abusive relationship has all of the above characteristics, but most have at least some of them.

I definitely recognise myself in some of those characteristics, Atilla. Low self esteem, no boundaries and hiding out.

It's interesting that you've come across another dealbreaker, bushy - although linked to the first. I wonder if you maybe subconsciously thought that stopping or controlling drinking was the key to sorting out all of the other problems? That perhaps other things would fall into place once the booze was no longer a problem?

If he's genuinely cutting down from the amount he was drinking before, he may be having some symptoms of withdrawal. Equally he may well be resenting you for imposing the drinking ban and thus feeling like 'what MORE does she want?'

So not only are you short on cash, but also struggling with debt - and he's basically refusing to seek work and demanding to keep drinking? My fear is growing now that actually he will stick to the arrangement you've made about his levels of drinking - which means that technically when the month is up you will have no grounds left to say the situation is untenable.

bushy if he has no income, how does he buy alcohol?

This is a serious question, btw, because it's one thing to say to him we can't afford to spend money on alcohol and quite another to say, we have no money for alcohol.

If he had to earn the money himself, to pay for his drinking, how long do you think it would take him to find work?

Trib - I haven't just discovered it. It's very much part of the whole problem and I discussed it in my OP. However, I have been focusing on the alcohol problem for the last few days. You are right about DH feeling very controlled / under the thumb at the moment. It's harder than ever (and it was always very difficult) to bring up the topic of jobs, as the row this morning illustrates. He called himself a 'hen pecked twat' so he is obviously pissed off with me.

But what can I do? These are the two issues that are massive dealbreakers for me and both things (alcohol and unwillingness to work) are making me want to run for the hills at the moment. So I can either walk away now or I can fight these two issues until either they are resolved or until I understand that I can't resolve them on my own, he is not willing to change things, and I walk away then.

Fairenuf, he has a very small income from his part time venture. He is usually paid in cash. We also have a joint current account into which my wages, our child benefit and our tax credits are paid. We don't police each other's spending, we have always viewed any money coming in from any source as joint money. In previous times when he was earning more money, I was free to spend it as I liked. (I know I know, I didn't go spending it on an addiction we couldn't afford.)

But what can I do?

Well, there are two things you can do straight away.

1. Tell him that until he is contributing more to the running of the house, only debts and essentials will be paid for. So, no money for booze - sorry but if he wants it that much he will do something about it.

2. TELL him this - These are the two issues that are massive dealbreakers for me and both things (alcohol and unwillingness to work) are making me want to run for the hills at the moment. So I can either walk away now or I can fight these two issues until either they are resolved or until I understand that I can't resolve them on my own, he is not willing to change things, and I walk away then.

Also, I'm wondering if you could answer this question - If he had to earn the money himself, to pay for his drinking, how long do you think it would take him to find work?

bushy - yes, sorry - I appreciate you mentioned it in your OP but you have been focusing on the alcohol and now (he may interpret it) that he has offered concessions on what he wants to drink you are now straight on to him with something else, some other deal breaker.

I do not for one minute suggest this is a reasonable point of view and it is frankly shocking that you are doing virtually everything whilst he sits on his arse and drinks to excess when you have debts to pay. However, if you are tackling drinking this month - perhaps fighting a war on two fronts simultaneously might deplete your resources too far?

That said, I agree with Fairenuff - and I also wonder if he had to earn the money to buy his own drink whether you'd have any way of stopping it from spending it all and drinking as much as he liked.

You mentioned that your dad offered money to help clear debts. Would your dad give you money - and support you in other ways - if you left your husband? Would you be entitled to tax credits, benefits etc?

Why, if you are the sole breadwinner and the family has money troubles, are you still allowing him to buy so much booze? If he sees himself as hen-pecked (nice way of trying to manipulate you btw), fine, let him be: close the joint accounts and keep YOUR hard-earned money for you and the DC! If he wants cash, he can go and earn it.

Normally am all in favour of "family money", but he is just spending on booze while you get into debt.

And if schools aren't employing supply teachers, could he not apply for permanent teaching or even TA jobs?

'If he had to earn the money himself, to pay for his drinking, how long do you think it would take him to find work?'

I don't know the answer to that. I don't know what's in his head. And I'm not sure I want to say to him that if he wants to drink he needs to earn the money to buy it. Even if we had a bottomless pit of money, I would still want him to stop drinking every night. So the argument that he can drink when he can pay for it himself could slap me in the face if he does get a job.

We had another row this evening. He is angry with me for bringing up the work issue and wants me off his back. As Trib says, perhaps I should be tackling one thing at a time. The trouble is, our financial needs are real and pressing right now. I am on maternity leave and my pay-packet is much reduced, and disappears completely in a couple of months. (For reasons that are nothing to do with this thread, I cannot return to work yet).

He asked me if I'd told my dad about his drinking and I said yes (I told dad 3 years ago). DH was very upset and said something along the lines of "He must be delighted with me - I haven't got a job, he's paying my mortgage and I'm an alcoholic." (Dad is paying the mortgage while I'm on mat leave.) So he's obviously embarrassed about his problems which surely shows he doesn't want things to continue the way they are? He also said "I'll save you the trouble and leave myself." A threat? Not sure. Then he took the dog out and came back calmer.

He is very upset and angry tonight. But not saying much now. Not being openly hostile towards me but clearly unhappy.

No booze tonight. I do believe he's serious about staying dry 5/7.

Bushy it sound like he is saying and doing everything he can to deflect the issue away from his drinking. Why can he not have a calm and rational conversation with you about it? Why can he not agree a plan with you without becoming defensive? Why does he refuse to listen to how his drinking makes you feel?

My guess is that he is not ready to face up to it yet.

Stay strong, hang in there, there is plenty of help out there when he is ready to accept it.

"He must be delighted with me - I haven't got a job, he's paying my mortgage and I'm an alcoholic."

Yes, I don't imagine your dad is exactly sitting at home thinking what a great provider his son-in-law is and happy he is to know you are in good hands with him, bushy . WTF does he expect? The guy's paying his friggin mortgage cos he can't be chuffed working. He's subsidising the drinking the same as you are - I think he has a right to know his money's being literally pissed away.

Lots of alcoholics are very embarrassed about their problems - it's why they get so good at hiding, and why they ensure their nearest and dearest collude in the silence. Lots want to change, but don't/can't - that included me for a long time. Addiction is not the same as drinking too much.

It's good he's not drinking. I think it would be a bad idea to say he can drink what he earns (in essence) although I take Fairenuff's point, which was to question his motivations for not working when every bloody thing is done for him if he doesn't. Including his addiction being fed.

The moodiness could be linked to the not drinking. My DP and I were talking about the rollercoaster of emotions that alcohol puts you on. He said he felt so up and down compared to how he feels now (i will caution that he is on prozac but is on 1 every 3 days at the minute). Attempts at cutting down in the past would go ok for the first few days then my DP would start to get moody and then would either 'engineer' an argument so that he could claim he had been 'driven' to drink or he would moan about his hard, stressful shift job working weekends when mist people are getting drunk - a real 'woe is me' tale ending with a hinted threat of quitting so i would crack and tell him to go get a bottle of bloody wine!

Thinking of you bushy

Hi all. Pleased that your dh isn't drinking tonight bushy.

Dp got the kids to school by getting up at seven to get his car back. He seems to be not drinking tonight, hasn't drank in the house but did nip out "to the shop" but he was back pretty quickly and I can't smell booze but I'm by no means in the mood to kiss him to find out. I think he wants to talk to me but tbh I feel like I have no emotional energy left. I need to try to keep myself strong rather than stressing about things that only he can control.

He shouldn't be angry at you just because he's embarrassed about his own shortcomings. What are you supposed to do, pretend they don't exist and let the family fall into debt?

There are some 'ignoring things' you can gloss over, but sitting around getting drunk when you're not bringing any money in is not one of them :(

Just to add, my DH has said before that there is an enormous amount of shame associated with having a drinking problem, he has felt this very strongly, and associated with the shame is a sense of inadequacy and low self esteem. Which is not helpful when you are having to go out and be proactive and look for a job etc. It's a bit of a viscious circle really isn't it, there are bad feelings, so they drink to forget them, then they feel bad about themselves for drinking and so it goes on. I don't know what the answer is!

Ajaney, just wondering, for your DH did the antidepressants help with the drinking or did he stop drinking before going on them? My DH is on citalopram which is more anxiety related. He gets very stressed and anxious about work, and finances. For him drinking is a way of getting some relief from this pressure. Of course my argument is that there are more positive ways of dealing with this pressure, but he doesn't seem able to do those things at the moment. His counsellor has been talking to him about this but all they seem to have come up with so far is that he needs to change his lifestyle and as part of this have more "me" time. Hmm.

How's it going bushy, has he managed to stay off the alcohol this week. Which are his two days Friday & Saturday was it? Hope you're ok x

Very pleased to report that no alcohol has been consumed in the Bushy household this week. He is planning to drink on Sunday (we are socialising) and I don't know which other night yet - probably Friday.

There is also a spark of hope on the job front too, but only a spark, and it's me doing most of the work towards it .

That's good news, bushy. How is his mood? Hopefully improving as he reduces his intake (although this may take a while).

Where did you leave things with your previous job discussion?