Just had a Big Talk with dh about his drinking and other issues.

[bushymcbush]

I told him that if he chooses to continue drinking we will have to split up because I choose to no longer live my life in misery.

We've been here before and he usually makes a token effort to cut down (never stop altogether ) for a short time - a couple of weeks maybe - then reverts to drinking at least a bottle of wine by himself every night. Sometimes more.

Before some of you tell me that it's not that much and what's the problem, I should add that he does this even though we have very little money coming in right now and 2 dc to support. He really struggles to not drink. I don't want to spend time with him when he is drinking and I don't want to have sex with him when he is drinking, so it's a massive barrier to us enjoying our relationship. I no longer go back downstairs after putting the dc to bed but prefer to stay upstairs in 'my' space while he remains downstairs with his wine in front of the telly in 'his' space. That's not a marriage I can bear to be in any longer.

Other issue is his being out of work and doing almost nothing to get work. He has had some freelance stuff this month but he didn't seek it out, it came to him. We desperately need him to be earning money or we may not be able to put food on the table next month (yet he still spends minimum £50 week on booze rather than save for next month).

I suggested to him that the two things (drinking and lack of motivation / direction) might be linked but he doesn't think they are. To be fair, he has been drinking like this for 20 years (I know, I was stupid for marrying him and irresponsible for having children with him - please don't say it, it's never that simple and I can't change that now) but he had plenty of work until 2 years ago. But now the work he does has dwindled to nothing (because of the industry he is in) he just sits and waits for something to happen and complains that he doesn't know what he wants to do with his life. In 6 months he has applied for 3 jobs. Not bloody good enough.

So he said tonight he will 'do something about' the drinking and I suggested he needs some kind of help with that or we'll be back at square one very soon and I won't go back to square one again.

He said he wont drink tomorrow night and we'll talk again.

I'm posting this as a record for myself of what's happening because I'm determined that this time, things will get properly and permanently sorted or its the end of the road. Also, I'm posting for hand holding and support, and to ask you to kick me up the arse if I let things slide. I don't want to live like this any more and I don't want my dd's growing up with it either.

If you've read this far, thank you.

I do love it when it gets frothy? Explain where I have aid HAS to stay? Or that she is oblidged to stay? Those with difficulty with reading may want to pay particular attention to the part where I say "It is her call" Those who think they can tell what intonation I am putting in to a wriiten sentence and not a spoken sentence should get a grip, your not in my head you have no idea how I meant that!

If I were truly trying to guilt the op I would assure her she will send him down into a spiral of depression and drinking that will leave her children with no happy memories of their father at all, and that his death will entirely be on her. But no I do not seem to have written that at all, I have said that it could be an outcome I have described other outcomes, I have given the OP the moral legitimacy to leave. What I am not doing is allowing this idea that he can just stop, that she can blame him for not just stopping or refusing to live up to her ultimatum, nor am I allowing her through the other respondents to this thread to be feed the tripe that she is powerless to help. The help needs to come from outside, he needs to want the help, he needs to do the majority of the work. But staying and supporting is most defiantly helping.

What if he had some other serious disease such as cancer, would you support him then?

You are conflating a lot of issues leith. No-one has said he can just stop.

I don't see any justification or support for the preposition that staying and supporting will "most defiantly help". Research on loving and supportive environments providing best outcomes has nothing to do with the alcoholic's partner "staying and supporting" sometimes staying is not supportive of recovery sometimes it is just enabling.

Alcoholism and/or drug addictions are not the same as serious illnesses. They are addictions and the reasons they are harmful to the addict are also the reasons they are harmful to the addict's immediate family. I don't see this all or nothing approach and I don't see it being suggested either. Leaving or detaching from the alcoholism is not necessarily unsupportive or unloving. It can be necessary if the partner had become part of the alcoholism. It says nothing about leaving or detaching from the person although sometimes this is necessary too I think.

A partner and children are put directly at risk from the addiction. People are not put at risk by their partners' cancer.

Offred, you are making sweeping generalisations. It appears from the OP's post that her DH has been a good husband and provider for 20 years. Now his earning capacity is diminished because of a downturn in his area of work and through no fault of his own. Coincidentally, her tolerance of his drinking has declined sharply at the same time. It is not clear whether or not she works or contributes to the family budget or is doing anything to help out during this period of recession.

i am not condoning the drinking, but there is no suggestion that OP's DH is violent or a threat. The main threat appears to be to his own health. His self esteem is low because he can't provide for his family, he is depressed and drinking as a means of escape.

Does he receive any love or support? No. OP shuts herself away, issues ultimatums and ignores him. He has outlived his usefulness, so now she wants to move on. i have to day that I feel very sorry for him.

Sorry, meant 'say' not 'day'!

Offred You do realise that you are saying the OP has BEEN enabling the drinking up till now by your posts? According your methodology it's all or nothing, she either rules his life in minute detail including setting unachievable goals, or she walks away.

I am sure she has tried helping, unfortunatly what she has found and i invite her to come back and tell us her experiences, is someone who has made promises but not kept them. She know doubt has done what she could to work with him, only to find the two of them were unable to sustain the improvement. As difficult as that is to accept she has to either acknowledge that outside help is needed, from people far more used to working with the addicted, and also that she may not be the person that can unlock the desire to change in her husband. She can be the reason he changes, or she can provide him with a reason not to change. just upping and going solves her problem but does nothing to help him. Leaving after fully engaging with her husband and saying that he has a chance IF he gets the help, and that she will not cut him off from his children and that she still has feelings for him when he is sober WILL HELP

I haven't actually said anything about the op.

And if I did I would say there are plenty of things in the OP's first post which negatively affect and put at risk the op and her dcs, not least the spending of money they don't have and the lack of contribution to to family and/or relationship as well as the actual being drunk.

She can be the reason he changes, or she can provide him with a reason not to change

This is extemely unlikely.

Remember - she did not cause this, she can not control this, she can not cure this.

It's actually nothing to do with OP. It's his decision, not hers.

All she can do is decide whether or not she wants to live wth an alcoholic.

And leith what I am saying is you don't have to live with someone to be in a relationship. You don't have to be in a relationship to love and support them. You don't have to love and support the alcoholism just because you love and support the person.

I would prefer if people didn't use my thread to argue. I don't even really understand what exactly you are arguing about.

Update - no booze tonight (so far). No chance to talk properly yet either. I need to go and ask him how he is.

Equally he could be coming to talk to you, bushy. This isn't all about you looking after his not-drinking state.

When I first stopped, my GP was quite surprised I'd managed to go cold turkey without physical side-effects (I think this was partly helped by being extremely ill by this point). He said he wouldn't give me anything to help with withdrawal effects because by then if it was going to come on it would have done. What I said to my DH is, if I do have a bad reaction this weekend (this was all happening on the Friday) and I can't get to see a GP, I am going to have a drink to cope with it. I'm going to tell you that I'm doing it and I'm going to make sure I have a better solution in place from Monday, but I'm not going to drive myself crazy over the weekend.

Fortunately I didn't need that drink - but it was important to me to be completely honest. I hope he tells you how he is - really - even if his honest feeling is that if he can manage two nights in a row off the booze he can't be an alcoholic. (Most alcoholics can manage two nights off the booze in reality).

I am respecting bushy's request to not argue and by leaving this thread, but those saying she has no part to play should think long and hard about all their family and friends turning their backs on them if they ever needed help with a problem so big that they could not deal with it.

This is aimed not at bushy but at the other posters.

How are you doing this morning, bushymcbush?

I'm doing ok thanks Trib. We have a nice family outing planned today (he's not getting out of it this time!).

DH is working this evening so won't be drinking. However, his usual routine is to buy his bottle of wine on the way home and start drinking at midnight. He may well try this, knowing that I will be asleep by the time he gets home. He also feels entitled to drink on weekends and when he's been working in the evening.

I'm torn as to whether I should check on him or trust him to tell me the truth.

I'm torn whether I should bring up the subject before he leaves for work - I'm worried that if I do, it could spoil a lovely family day but if I don't, he will have already made up his mind to drink later. Because I'm almost certain he hasn't resolved to stop drinking - just cut down. And I know that will lead almost immediately to drinking every night again.

I'm going to have to speak to him before he leaves, aren't I? I need to fight this thing. I know many of you think it's futile but if only for my own peace of mind, knowing I did all I could, I need to fight it.

I think speaking to him is reasonable - when either cutting down or stopping (and I think I mentioned above, although might have been on another thread, my GP only suggested stopping 'temporarily' as I think he has found it is too daunting for alcoholics to have to stop FOREVER from being a fully active addict) the important thing is to recognise what your triggers are. Weekends, coming in from work - these are classic ones. It's important to recognise them and plan how to deal with them.

You could simply say "do you think it's going to be hard not having a drink after work tonight?" and let him lead the conversation from there.

bushy, in the first line of the first post in this thread you said you had told him that "... if he chooses to continue drinking we will have to split up".

OK. You have made your position clear. You now need to take a step back and watch what he does. You really don't want to put yourself into the position of being the booze police.

He said he wont drink tomorrow night and we'll talk again

If he has any intention of changing, he would approach you to have that talk that he promised. Personally, I think he was fobbing you off.

I would do as Snorbs suggested and let his actions speak for themselves.

He's not the 'talking about it' type on any issue, which is why he hasn't approached me. He'd always avoid serious chats if he could.

I brought up the topic of tonight and he was very vague. Said he hadn't decided yet if he would drink or not. I said "Why don't you decide now so it's easy to refuse later" and he said it depended on various blah blah and that it's Friday and he'll have been working. I said that was no excuse for it, he tried to insist it was and that he's not stopping completely, just during the week (so he clearly had already decided to drink tonight). He got a bit angry and said ""Do you expect me to completely stop?" and said he didnt want to talk about it any more and he knew my point of view. I replied that I would be expressing my point of view because "my main aim is to keep my family together." That actually seemed to make the point as his anger immediately left him.

He has left for work now and won't be back until after midnight. I think he may still drink tonight but I feel quite proud that I made my point - I've kept mostly quiet about it for years because I thought that was the 'right' thing to do. To detach. It only allowed him to delude himself that I didn't really mind and everything was fine, when it wasn't.

I'm now confused as to what he has actually agreed to. It sounds like he agreed to stop drinking during the week - with the intention of proving he can stick to that regime for more than just a couple of weeks? But from the conversation you've just had, it doesn't sound like you had a definite agreement on anything other than stopping for two days (which he has done) and then talking again (which I suppose could be regarded as this conversation - instigated by you).

Btw, if he's the 'not talking type' you were pretty much kidding yourself earlier in the week when he said he would try a night off and then you'd talk again ... did you have your nice day out today, at least?

We haven't got a definite agreement on anything yet. We really have not had a chance to talk it through properly. He, of course, will try to avoid this talk but I won't.

The only reason it hasn't happened yet is that we've been very preoccupied with an important family birthday for a couple of days. But believe me, that talk will happen, in the next couple of days.

Hi Bushy. Your posts really resonated with me and took me back to a time in my life when I was dealing with a similar situation.

I found this site to be a great source of support and information, if a little culturally different to what I was sometimes comfortable with. It really helped to look at the similarities rather than the differences, though, and not feel quite so alone.

This post and this one really helped me to get some grounding in the situation. Al-anon helped too.

Good luck.

Those are great links (footlikea...) . In fact the second thread you linked to made me cry.

How are things going bushy? I agree with the comments about monitoring his drinking, I have been down this road before, for a while I even kept a notebook in which I would write down how much DH was drinking. I think I thought it would shock him into stopping. It didn't, it just resulted in an argument about how arbitrary the government recommended allowances are (or not). That way madness lies, methinks.

As for me well my DH is currently sound asleep in the chair - he has been since about 10.00. We went out to some neighbours tonight for a meal, it was nice, but they are very restrained drinkers and I could see DH was champing at the bit for more wine! Sure enough as soon as we got home out came the bottle.

See, his argument (much like your DH) would be that he has been working hard all day, is tired, and deserves a break and a nice drink of wine. I can't argue with that really, except for the fact that I then end up like billy no mates watching him snore. Surely this is not "normal" married behaviour? Don't people sometimes talk/cuddle/have sex/enjoy one another's company? Once again I am wondering if this is all I have got to look forward to. I know a cup of tea and a biscuit is not a very exciting prospect but at least then he would still be awake - and there might be the possibility of watching a movie together, or having sex, or just being companionable. This reality is just boring, and lonely. I imagine yours is too. Also it sounds as if there is a lot of tension in the air - how are your DC's coping with everything? Good for you in trying to talk to him, I find that things tend to go round and round in my head but saying them aloud is hard for me. It does sound as if you are trying hard!

teenweeny so much of your post resonates - I'm sue you're really me! (or we share the same DH!)

Especially:

Surely this is not "normal" married behaviour? Don't people sometimes talk/cuddle/have sex/enjoy one another's company? Once again I am wondering if this is all I have got to look forward to.

Exactly this. I crave a 'normal' evening in as a married couple. I cannot even remember the last time we watched something together on TV. About 2 months ago we said we were going to start having a film night once a week as a way to spend time together. (Our children are tiny and I still bf the baby, so we don't go out.) Of course, film night was dependent on DH not drinking himself to sleep by 10.30. We got all excited about the idea and even replaced our knackered DVD player in anticipation. Film night hasn't happened yet.

This reality is just boring, and lonely. I imagine yours is too.

God yes. Achingly lonely. I never knew marriage could be this lonely when you are still actually in love with each other. Which we are. Although, I was listening to The Smiths earlier and caught this lyric 'I still love you, only slightly less than I used to' which rang true for my marriage. I mean, he clearly loves alcohol more than he loves me. And my love for him is strong and real, but 16 years of his alcohol abuse has eroded it to a not

how are your DC's coping with everything?

They are very young, but I worry that my 4yo might pick up on something.

I find that things tend to go round and round in my head but saying them aloud is hard for me.

Me too. I am forcing myself to speak out because I'm determined to fight to save my marriage, not just walk meekly away. But I'm not used to saying anything. The 'big talk' I alluded to in the thread title had me shaking like a bloody leaf. Pathetic, and very telling I think that we find it so hard to speak out. Perhaps we have been somehow controlled or trained by our DHs to keep quiet about it? I'm not sure. I thought I was detaching, but I can't have been doing it right because it wasn't making me any happier.