Just had a Big Talk with dh about his drinking and other issues.

[bushymcbush]

I told him that if he chooses to continue drinking we will have to split up because I choose to no longer live my life in misery.

We've been here before and he usually makes a token effort to cut down (never stop altogether ) for a short time - a couple of weeks maybe - then reverts to drinking at least a bottle of wine by himself every night. Sometimes more.

Before some of you tell me that it's not that much and what's the problem, I should add that he does this even though we have very little money coming in right now and 2 dc to support. He really struggles to not drink. I don't want to spend time with him when he is drinking and I don't want to have sex with him when he is drinking, so it's a massive barrier to us enjoying our relationship. I no longer go back downstairs after putting the dc to bed but prefer to stay upstairs in 'my' space while he remains downstairs with his wine in front of the telly in 'his' space. That's not a marriage I can bear to be in any longer.

Other issue is his being out of work and doing almost nothing to get work. He has had some freelance stuff this month but he didn't seek it out, it came to him. We desperately need him to be earning money or we may not be able to put food on the table next month (yet he still spends minimum £50 week on booze rather than save for next month).

I suggested to him that the two things (drinking and lack of motivation / direction) might be linked but he doesn't think they are. To be fair, he has been drinking like this for 20 years (I know, I was stupid for marrying him and irresponsible for having children with him - please don't say it, it's never that simple and I can't change that now) but he had plenty of work until 2 years ago. But now the work he does has dwindled to nothing (because of the industry he is in) he just sits and waits for something to happen and complains that he doesn't know what he wants to do with his life. In 6 months he has applied for 3 jobs. Not bloody good enough.

So he said tonight he will 'do something about' the drinking and I suggested he needs some kind of help with that or we'll be back at square one very soon and I won't go back to square one again.

He said he wont drink tomorrow night and we'll talk again.

I'm posting this as a record for myself of what's happening because I'm determined that this time, things will get properly and permanently sorted or its the end of the road. Also, I'm posting for hand holding and support, and to ask you to kick me up the arse if I let things slide. I don't want to live like this any more and I don't want my dd's growing up with it either.

If you've read this far, thank you.

Hi, just wanted to say hello and add my own support. Your DH sounds a lot like mine. He is currently working and earning good money but in the past we have had long periods of being very hard up when he wasn't working but the wine habit hardly changed. It's hard isn't it when you can see how much money is being spent and you are worried about your future. Especially if you are the main earner.

I have been posting here about my DH since 2008 and it's horrible to say it but NOTHING has changed. I have given myself several deadlines like you - oh, just until Christmas, or until after DD's birthday, or after he has seen the doctor, of whatever. We have had various confrontations, discussions, heart to hearts, shouting matches, whatever, and each time he agrees yes he has a problem and yes he needs to change.

My DH has seen his doctor, has seen a counsellor from the local drug and alcohol support team, and now is currently seeing a private addiction specialist at a cool 60 quid a session - so far all that seems to have come out of that is that his lifestyle is an issue i.e long hours, working away sometimes etc. But to me that does not "explain" or excuse the drinking. So I am currently not feeling very hopeful to be honest.

I am currently working to my own deadline which is the end of his counselling - he has about 3 weeks more to go. After that if I see no change I am going to book us into Relate. If nothing else this will provide me with a "safe" environment in which to say enough is enough.

Like you, the main issue for me at the moment is loneliness and lack of intimacy. I spend many nights sitting alone, or going to bed alone, while he drinks himself to a stupor. Our sex life has dwindled to practically nothing, and our social life has also taken a hit too. It doesn't seem like a very good deal. Sometimes I look at him snoring on the sofa and think will I still be sitting here looking at this in 30 years time? Or worse, will he be in hospital waiting for a liver transplant while he wastes away?

It's easy to say get out, leave, you deserve better. I feel all these things too but I'm still here. It's complicated. DH suffers from depression as well (obviously tied up with the drinking, self esteem issues etc). I guess I see the alcohol addiction like the depression, as an illness. If it was easy to stop, he would.

I have bought/read so many books on codependency and alcoholism I could open a library, I have been to counselling, I talk to friends, I am a member of an online al-anon group. On one level leaving seems the obvious thing to do, and yet it really isn't simple to put into practise. I am not scared of being alone, and financially I know I could manage without him, so what is stopping me?

Anyway sorry I really didn't want to make this all about me, just wanted you to know you are not alone, and that I know how complicated and confusing it all can be when you love someone but don't love their addiction.

It's not an idle threat. I really have chosen not to live with alcohol abuse going on in my house any more. If he doesn't get proper help, it's game over. I absolutely must protect my girls from being part of a home overshadowed by drink.

Unfortunately, they might have to tolerate a relationship marred by drink their whole lives as he is their father.

teenyweenytadpole - so much of what you say resonates with me. Especially the awful visions of the future.

In fact, the only real difference in our situations is that your dh has / is actually getting help. Mine has yet to do so.

Thank you for sharing your story with me. Please let me know how things go for you.

I think it would be worth you talking to Al-Anon, bushymcbush. I had your DH's mindset for years: cannot seek help as I will be told to stop drinking. I sought help, and guess what? I was told to stop drinking. Of course I was told to. It's the only way.

(As an aside, more recently my GP and I have had some slightly surreal conversations where he appears to be encouraging me to start drinking again and I go 'no I really don't want to do that' - reverse psychology? Anyway, that's a long way in your DH's future at the moment).

Some your statements that stood out for me:
he is incapable of doing it alone
It can only be done alone. Truly.

I will be fighting it tooth and nail.
You can't. You truly can't.

He's already demonstrated his selfishness today by going back on promises to spend the day together as a family.
But you've (entirely understandably) made it all about the drinking. This is why I think Al-Anon may be useful to you - if for no other reason than to explain the concept of the dry drunk. I can only suggest you are very cautious about what you regard as a successful month off the booze if he does manage it - although I don't think he is going to, unfortunately.

Tribpot - could you humour me and explain 'dry drunk' please?

I Sid go to a couple of al anon sessions about 2 years ago. I stopped because of the hard time dh gave me about going. Problem if I went now would be my 6 month old ebf baby who has to be with me all the time and the hard time my dh would give me about it

I could have written the same thing as you bushy, 4 years ago... my H (now ex) drank 3 or 4 special brew every night, well actually if I remember rightly he didn't drink on a wednesday night| Anyway, we were really skint, even though he did have a job, but he couldn't see how much a problem his drinking was, he would say that he deserved a drink as he'd been working hard, it was his little treat... after going to the drs together to get help for his 'depression' the dr told him to stop drinking and to go back and see him a while later... it never happened though... he couldn't give it up... maybe for a week or so but it always crept up...

I think what I'm trying to say is good luck, he is lucky to have your support.

Bushy have you had another thread about your DH recently?

I think today he has given you a massive signal. He has broken a promise, but in such a way as to make you look unreasonable if you say anything. That is cruel.
I can see why your friend helped with the job hunt, but you cannot make him be motivated, he has to want to do it - same as with the booze.

Being freelance is hard, my DH has his own consultancy and it is hard to always be looking for the next job - but that is the price to pay for the freedom of being your own boss.

I second whoever suggested seeing a solicitor before your month is up, just so that you know where you stand.

Op lets start by stopping the flannel. You want out. Thats ok, it is your right and your choice, you may even have an argument about protecting your children from witnessing what drink does to someone and to a relationship.

However he is not going to stop, he cannot stop, he will continue not to live up to your demands and expectations. He is an alcoholic, he is addicted, he will relapse as soon as possible because it will come down to a matter of survival.. his. You, the kids, his home, his self esteem, his dignity will all count for less than the the urge to make it through the day and he can only do that with alcohol on board, the same as a crack addict, or a gambler, or even a seriously addicted smoker.

Tribot says you cannot help him, rubbish you can if you want to. Yes sure you cannot undergo the physical act of detox for him, tribot is right he has to do that himself. But he needs to want to do it, he needs to have support to do it, he needs to see that the pain and suffering he is going through will be worth it. In short he needs goals and hope to act as motivation.

So here is your choice, go, be done with it, let him sort himself if he can. It is possible he could. Then again he might decide to not bother trying. In the time it takes for that to work out what will you do about access, your children cannot be prevented from seeing the decline of their father if he chooses to use what ever access you work out. The best hope on that score is that they or he never want to see each other. If they do and he still drinks then the children will not be protected by you leaving they may in fact still suffer long term harm as a result of having to deal with both the family break up as well as the downward spiral of their dad which in turn could rebound on you.

If you leave and he goes for help and dry's out even then he is always one drink away from being back as an alike, a very difficult and emotional, as well as vulnerable place to be. One bad day at work, an argument with you, a wrong word from a bus driver and he could fall off the wagon and then need to start all over again.

Staying is not much better apart from offering him support and motivation, stability, and hope. Still though the risks will be there on a daily basis, but time and again it has been shown that people with support and stability are more able to get over the addiction than those without, as well as to be able to manage their addiction on a long term basis.

However setting arbitrary dates in your head for what you are going to do is unrealistic if you expect him to comply with them. For a start if you have an ultimatum tell him, if you are leaving go, if you want to see progress then get him the help he needs. But stop flanneling with your letting him sort himself out as he won't, can't, has neither the tools nor the willpower. Even if he wants to with all his heart and soul he can't

Leithlurker - you are wrong. There is no flannel. At the end of the day OP needs to put herself/DC ahead of her partner's booze. There is a difference between being supportive and enabling. If she does as you suggest, she is enabling. If he needs support, then AA or similar will provide plenty, IF HE IS WILLING TO CHANGE. If he isn't (this is probable) then OP needs to cut herself free, save her own and DCs lives. With no change her partner will end up dead/disabled through liver disease - who needs to be around that ( self-induced?)

Dry drunk.

I can't see how it he can give you a hard time about going to Al-Anon; you are suffering from the effects of alcoholism. That's what it's for. I'm sure it will be fine to take the baby with you.

The 3 Cs of Al-Anon:
I Didn't Cause It, I Can't Control It, I Can't Cure It.

This seems to be a regularly recurring type of thread on MN.

There is no doubt that alcohol addiction can cause great problems in families but, like other forms of addiction, it is an illness in a way that depression is an illness (to which it can be closely linked). I think few people now believe that depression is 'self induced'.

My own - probably unpopular - view is that you married DH in sickness and in health and that you should encourage and support him in his attempts to cut his drinking to sensible levels or give up altogether. I don't think ultimatums will work if he has a serious problem - he is more likely to drink or do it secretly.

I know money is tight but what about planning a few evenings together away from the house doing an activity which doesn't cost much and doesn't involve drinking - possibly a long walk or a cinema trip.

Only you can decide what to do - and you cannot make him change or be responsible for him. But please bear in mind that he will always remain your DC's father and you need to respect that.

Would the position be different if you were obese because you had food issues and he couldn't cope with that, or would you expect him to support you?

Dolcelatte - in your scenario the OP would presumably still be the one posting for help on MN, which would mean by implication she had almost certainly accepted that she had a problem and wanted to change. On the other hand, if the OP posted that she'd been told by her DH that he thought she had a food addiction but she just enjoyed her food, could stop any time (?) and had the right to spend money her family did not have on food for herself - would we be replying 'your DH needs to support you through this'? Support her through what? The OP says there is no problem ...

OP, you might find this book helpful. I have the companion book which is intended for the problem drinker themselves, although it has a good section for family members as well.

Tribpot - sorry if i was not clear, but i had in mind a scenario where DH was the one posting a problem about OP - addiction, letting herself go, spending excessive money on food, teaching DC bad relationship with food and long term risks to their health etc.

And yes, i would say to DH - support OP, encourage her to join a slimmimg club, take up exercise (cycle or walks together) - I wouldn't expect him to say if you haven't lost some weight by next week I am leaving you.

And if it was cocaine or heroin rather than alcohol, how long would you suggest the OP stick it out?

Dolce latte - there is no comparison between a compulsive eater and an alcoholic. Alcoholism is so destructive to the emotional and physical well being of all members of the family that in order to preserve the non-alcoholic's sanity, and protect any children involved, more drastic steps must be advised.
Kind support and love doesn't work with alcoholics. They soak up the support and love and do nothing to change. It is the same with any real addiction - drugs, gambling, etc. the addict either provides the impetus to change themselves, in which case the partner must certainly love and support - or there will be no change. A partner cannot love and support an alcoholic into changing if they don't have the will to - and in those cases, the only sane option is to detach. Anything else is to risk spending years and losing your own emotional health pouring all your love and support down the toilet, along with the family finances and the alcoholic's health.
Losing their family can spur some alcoholics into seeking that impetus to change from within. Others will not. The ones who don't - they never would have. NO amount of love and support will change that.

Actually - supposing the OP had a genuine food addiction, I doubt a slimming club would be able to provide much support. There is a major difference between addiction and bad habits. This is why the OP needs the support of an organisation like Al Anon (which I think will agree with you - and me - that issuing an ultimatum is unlikely to work).

I think the food addiction thing is taking over and it is not helpful. It has been helpful though to focus on the fact that the problem will not be solved by ultimatums especially if they are just in the head of the op, and that as I and others have said change is not some switch that is thrown and everything becomes better.

I have to agree with Dolce Latte that this comes down to how the op sees her vows. Which is not to say that she is oblidged to stay at all, but if she still holds to the notion that they are their to help and support each other no matter what. Vows are not elastic though and the op can quite legitimately feel she has no more support to give, it is her call.

Moanrangerwho indeed needs to be around that! I am glad that many more people have compassion and care for others than you do. Otherwise the streets which are already populated by addicts and the disabled who are homeless, would be awash with them as they will have been cast adrift by family and friends left to die or if they are lucky get the help they need.

Leithlurker what a vile pair of posts, trying to guilt to OP into staying. You are essentially saying that if only she was a good enough wife she would stay.

What utter bollocks. Her priority is her children, and her own sanity and well being. If those things are best served by leaving then that is what she should feel at liberty to do.

Vows?... I think tolerating this behaviour for 20 years and supporting this man for all that time means the OP has well and truly upheld her side of the bargain. There is no obligation to carry on for another 20.

There was no drinking last night. He did apply for the job.

Good start but keep it in perspective.

Will do Cogito. I don't have much hope longterm tbh. Just have to give him this chance.

Think leith you are making the same mistake about "love and support" as the government make about "stable home environments" - neither of those things mean "married couple". Sometimes love and support can be moving out and away from an alcoholic just like sometimes a home environment is more stable if the parents divorce.

The kindest thing to do is to put some boundaries in place so that he knows exactly what he is risking losing if he carries on drinking like he is.

The choice is entirely his. If he chooses alcohol over his family then he has to face the fact that his drinking is a problem for him. There is plenty of support out there when he is ready to ask for it.

He won't be able to make excuses or kid himself when he is faced with that stark reality.

It may be enough to stop him drinking, it may not. But carrying on the same as always won't change anything.

It has to be his choice though. Nothing else will work. It has to matter to him, not to anyone else. Once he recognises the problem, that's half the battle.

Hi Bushy. Have only skim read some of the replies, so excue me if I have missed something.
Just wanted to say that I know how you feel. Have ExP that is alcoholic.
Unfortunately still have to have contact due to him being DS1's Dad.

He sounds like he is the kind of person that has to stop rather than cut down. ExP was like this. ExP finally gave up drinking after his 3rd heart attack by the age of 42. That didn't last either, he has reverted. While he stopped completely, he was fine. Then he decided he could have 'one' and it all went down hill from there. He is a social drinker mostly, likes to be in the pub. He does drink in the house etc as well. This morning has sister has died, her organs have failed due to her history with alcohol. She only made it to her early fifties and leaves her husband, children, and grandchildren to mourn her. She was a very nice woman, but alcohol was her demon. I know that ExP will respond to this by hitting the bottle. I get so angry for my DS as it will be me that has to explain to DS when he has another heart attack or something.
I know this is more excessive than your DP, but it may be something you can shock him with if you need to. ExP doesn't usually drink in day time, and for years wouldn't admit alcoholism because he didn't drink when he got up in the morning. He would also regularly spend all the money on alcohol and leave none for DS for food etc.
Sorry for huge post, all this happening this morning rocked me, and reading your post brought it all out. The point i was trying to get to is weekend drinking isn't a good idea. Trying to find an alternative 'buzz' is. A hobby, or whatever. Anything is worth a try. A job will help as the expression 'the devil makes work for idle hands' is usually true for a drinker.