WWYD DH lending money again

[KatieMorag]

Dh has a long hiistory of lending our money to mostly family and friends without agreeing this with me first. Sometimes it gets paid back , sometimes not. We've had many many rows about this. He promises faithfully that he won't do it again. Then he does

Usually he lends money to his family. I don't mind if (a) we can afford it ( b) we get it back and ( c) we agree it between us. Sometimes we give money to family too, on the same conditions. This is because we are fortunate to be better off than most of our siblings.

About 10 years ago he borrowed £10,000 to lend to his sister. She never repaid it and it took us years to pay off the loan.

Last year he gave her £1,000 because she said she was in debt and couldn't pay her bills. She then took the money and went to Australia for a months holiday.

Earlier this year he lent a large sum of money to a colleague. By large I mean what I earn in a year. Today I discovered by accident that he's now lent this person another £10k.

I am so angry and Upset I can't even talk to him. It's not just the money, it's the lies , the deception and the broken promises. I don't know what to do.

Cinnabar, I think tax and NI has been paid on the bonus advance - I don't think it is a loan from an accounting perspective, it is simply a bonus which has been paid now rather than in Feb 13, which is odd commercial behaviour as the KPIs for the bonus are year end based but isn't an actual problem tax-wise, I believe.

I am not an accountant so bow to any greater knowledge you have on that point.

Hi OP - I've PM'd you.

TDOE - yes, I agree with you.

I'm just always a bit concerned when owner-managers of companies start talking about drawings. As I said above, by definition drawings can only come from an unincorporated business (and can only be taken out of the business by the owner/trader); there's no such thing as drawings from a company.

IME some owner-managers struggle to understand that the company's funds don't legally belong to them, especially when they've previously operated an unincorporated business (from which the trader can take drawings because, by definition, the trader is the business).

He sounds mentally unstable. I haven't read the whole thread but I can't believe the sums involved. Can you seperate your finances or limit the sums he can transfer?

Just popped back on Morag to see how you are doing. Relieved to see some action being taken and it seems you are doing the right steps.

My DH used to be like yours, having other people's approval is a drug and I think especially for men, it's a big ego tripper, 'look how successful am I? I can help you because 'I' (and my family) don't need any help'.

I have to say (gently as I can), you are in the for the long haul wikth your DH. You're not going to change him overnight but you can put 'speed bumps' and bounderies in place to ensure you and your kids inheritance doesn't get ripped off again.

I had to lay my marriage on the line - twice - for my DH to 'come round'. It was only when I ranted at his so called 'friends' and family AND employees and they heard it directly from me - with fcking financial proof - how much we were hard up from DH's 'generosity'. Then I requested his company to close and he sell up his share. Thanks fcking god for that.............And I still check all paperwork/emails/mobile phone messages/post today - 5 years on...........Sad isn't it? But 5 years on, my DH STILL hasn't been able to clear his debts (did he ever get repaid fully? HELL NO). 5 years on I still have to remind my DH WHY WHY WHY he needs to put his wife and kids FIRST.

Hopefully, your situation will never be as bad as mine and actually we are alright today (and financially OK on my side). But the long story short is that your husband is going to take a while to change his habits.

Rant over!! That was cathartic!!

Cinnabar -it's drawings from a loan account. We as individuals have loaned the limited company money. This is money we have from selling a previous company, so we have alreday paid CGT on it. We don't have to pay tax again

Dh took money from this account into a personal account, then paid it into employees account. As far as I know it's perfectly legal, although reckless and immoral.

No doubt employee needs to declare that on his tax return but that's not my concern

Bonus to emplyee paid through salary as well so tax and ni paid. Again all above board

I thought it had coem from company to employee directly , which it why I was talking about s455 requirements

I've been busy digging more today

Sorry to see the face. Not good news?

you ok ?

Sorry to hear it's been another difficult day, OP.

Are you ok? What have you found?

Sorry for not coming back sooner, has been a bit stressful dealing with family and work crisis at the same time

I've met with the employee and, as expected, the situation is not quite as presented by DH. Money lent is in fact £80k. However he has agreed to sign a loan agreement undertaking to repay the £50k in 12 months ( the 30k is part of his bonus ).he will do this by remortgaging his property when the building work is finished.

Dh has admitted to employee that I didn't know anything about it and that he has misrepresented the situation. This was extremely humiliating for him

I've been very focussed on the work problems and haver really processed what I want go do about the marriage. Although dh is making a show of being very contrite I think he doesn't really think this is a big deal. For me it's about the breach of trust. I don't know how to get over this.

Thanks for the advice and the Pms . So much to consider at once, I want to think it through and not do anything rash.

Good move to meet with the employee direct.

I think you've struck the core issue there - it's about lies. When all is said and done it's the feeling of never being sure if you've the full story - the feeling of unease when dealing with a liar.

It's probably best to focus on the that and not get distracted by the idea of him being "generous", "wanting to be liked", "money" etc. Uncovering lies leaves you feeling that solid ground beneath you isn't there.

Your first post you sound as if you though you were being mean spirited but I think you can safely say that is is a distraction from the only issue - his lies.

OP tthat sounds like good progress from the business perspective. Well done.

Regarding the work issues - you sound very practical. You've got stuck into uncovering and nailing situation; really very impressive.

Take the emotion out of it while sorting the mess out. Look objectively at how you can avoid him creating this situation again and take those steps.

You say situation was humiliating for him - that's a step closer to him taking on board he has a problem. TELL him you are taking control. Don't suggest it

Lying is core to adultery threads isn't it? Lies have a very big impact - don't underestimate the impact this will have on your marriage. Don't let dh try to distract by saying "he didn't want to worry you" etc. Lying is lying is lying.

You've been amazing, OP. Now make sure you have an equal share in that business. It's going to be £80,000 better off because of you.

You sound very level headed OP

I cant pretend to understand all the financial info by cinnibar et al

Trying to put those sums of the loan in the context of the sums you both earn but it still seems an awful lot

Would I be off the mark to say you still have a down to earth , almost parsimonious , attitude to money in spite of your income ? In which case your DHs actions will be hugely annoying

I had a mild taste of this when xh and I came into a significant sum of money via him. It went to his head and he squandered money on all manner of things but he wasnt someone you told what to do. The majority of the spending was also to with being Mr Big , very unattractive.

After he left one of the things he had a go at me for was not being showy enough !

This sounds like something you can sort out, good luck

Well done, as others have said.

When you do have time to focus on the wider issues, they might include:

The fact that the money lent is in fact £80k, more than you had even discovered. So there were many lies along the way, as well as omissions of information.

Also, you say "Although dh is making a show of being very contrite I think he doesn't really think this is a big deal."

That is a key piece of information, and it would repay thinking through what that is about.

I think he believes I won't leave him because of what it would do to the children . Because it's nothing like a deal breaker to him he can't see why it would be to me

BTW now have signed legal agreement from employee with 12 month repayment or sooner if he remortgages or leaves job.

And still have control over Dhs access to business account. Don't know what to do about personal joint account.

Dh wants to know My conditions for staying in the marriage

Katie nothing useful to add the brilliant advice you've had, just wanted to say you've dealt/are dealing with this fantastically. You must feel so let down. Good luck for your future.

Just because he wants to know now doesn't mean you have to say now. 'I'm thinking about it' is a perfectly legitimate answer. I would give this time to sink in, for him and you.

I'm sure he does want to know, KatieMorag - because the sooner you have to lay out his blueprint for going through just enough of the motions to avoid a costly divorce, the less prepared you will be in the answers you give.

Frankly, the fucker can wait. Why on earth should you give him an answer until you've had a chance to process this whole catastrophic mess? And why on earth is it your responsibility to tell him how to fix it? If he truly cannot comprehend what he has done then I can't honestly see how you do fix it, at least insofar as having a marriage of equals, instead of one hovering over the purse strings of the other.

This seems to be a bit of a theme on MN of late - errant husbands who demand to know what they have to do to fix things but they have to know now. The subtext is clear: you're the one who says this is a problem. I personally think it's fine for me to be shagging my secretary or whatever it is I have actually done, so because I can claim it is YOUR problem, I can put all the responsibility for managing the process of fixing it at YOUR door.

In financial terms - I think you close the joint account. You really really NEED to have absolute control over your personal income. You say "still have control over DH's access to the business account" Still? You only put that in place yesterday. Does he think it's some short-term measure aimed at making him feel bad, like no telly for a week?

Btw, have you thought any more about hiring your own accountant? I actually think you should be considering suing the current one.

Tribpot, I have thought abiut the accountants and cinnabar has kindly pmed me soem helpful information . Re sueing the accountant-I'm not a lawyer but I think I would need to show that I'd suffered a loss, which I haven't. Although I could have, as others have pointed out

Re joint account-I don't actually use it at all, I have another two bank accounts. but I've not taken my name off it for obvious reasons.

I honestly don't know how to get dh to take this seriously, other than kick him out. But our kids would be devastated, so I don't want to do it unless I'm serious about us separating . And I want to try and fix it first. But as tribpot says, I feel like all the onus is on me to come up with solutions

does he think there is anything to "fix" ?

if he doesn't, you are on a hiding to nothing

if he thinks you will STFU (again) if he keeps his head down for a while, we will see you back here in another few months time

That's why I don't think you should rush to come up with a list of things he can say 'yup, yup, yup, of course' to and it's all 'fine' until the next person says 'I wonder if you might consider helping us out...'

I think it could take a couple of months at least until you know what you want the future to look like. I think you should talk about the moments in the past few days when you've felt it would be downright unreasonable to stay.

I think you need to go against all your instincts, KatieMorag, and that's why it's such a difficult, horrible position to be in.

• Don't fix the marriage problem
• Do upset your children by throwing him out

And do consult a lawyer about your options if you get divorced (at a minimum you need to get the ownership restored to 50:50, if not 70:30 in your favour first. You don't have to do anything off the back of the advice but if you do get divorced it's gonna be hellish complicated so forewarned is forearmed).

He will always win unless you play your trump cards. And he relies heavily on you not being prepared to do that - in other words, he's quite happy to risk his children's happiness, not to mention their financial future, because he's gambling that you won't do it back to him.

Absolutely you must take all the time you need to figure out what your options are; personally I'd also be tempted to say he has to pay the company back the money he's loaned out without permission from his personal account. But ultimately if he does not accept that his behaviour was wrong your only strategy left is to look for ways to protect yourself against it recurring. Based on what you've said, however, I do think he would shit himself if you consulted a divorce lawyer.

it isn't fair to use your children as a reason to let him off the k=hook, katie

they know nothing of this adult world he seems driven to fuck up

read the first paragraph of your first post on this thread

this is what you have, this is what you can expect

you can't change it, by "staying for the children", by getting a bit more annoyed this time, by clearing up his messes for him again and again

kudos to you for sorting all this out this week...with the accountant, with the recipients of his insane generosity

what has he done to sort this out ?

anything at all ?