My DH hates family life and I don't know what to do.

[confusedgirlfromtheShire]

Regular poster, namechanged.

Trying to keep a long story short, apologies in advance if any of this sounds perfunctory/cold. Am just trying to keep number of words down.

DH and I are both early thirties and have one DS who is nearly two. Been married 5 years. Together for 9, known each other for 14 years.

Me: high profile work in financial services on high wage, currently working four days a week. Like the job most of the time but very high pressure. Hours not too bad cos I work like a dog when I'm there so get a lot done and don't bring work home. So Mon to Thurs I am out of the house at 6.20am, 1.5 hour commute each way, home around 5.20pm. Have had Chronic Fatigue Syndrome since 2009 which lays me out whenever I have a bad virus, but I'm managing it with diet and lots of rest. House has always been in my name, now mortgage free.

DH: By agreement, does not work. Intelligent, but in his teens and early twenties lacked application, dropped out of uni, a series of jobs but zero "career", no hope of progression. I sorted him out, put him through OU while he was working, where he got a first class degree. We had DS in his final year, then I got PTSD and PND and we agreed because I earned three times what he did and he hated his job anyway he would quit, take on the babycare and we would put our DS in nursery a couple of days a week so my DH could do a masters over two years. He has just completed the first year and done very well. One year to go.

Issues: He really really hates what I term "family life". He doesn't like looking after our toddler, just puts up with it, goes through the motions but there is no real enjoyment there. DH says he feels he has no freedom and no time to himself and that he feels I never want to be on my own with DS. My argument is that I am paying £500 a month to give him Tuesdays and Thursdays to do what he wants as our DS is in nursery a day (DS loves it and is very happy there). Plus, I do Fridays and we are always out and about so he gets most of the day to himself then too. It's 50-50 in the evenings until DS goes to bed then as I go to bed early (9.30pm to recharge for the next day) if DH wants to do his own thing (pottering in the garage or painting his models) I don't mind that either. But apart from specific jobs for an hour or two on Sat and Sunday I expect that to be time where we spend it together as a family, just hanging out, going places etc. DH is pushing back on this, seems really miserable, complains that our DS is such a tie and that it's not me he resents, it's DS and he wants time to do his own thing, and as I don't really have any hobbies, it doesn't make sense for us to just be sitting around the house together as it's a waste of time. He has very few of his own friends. I can't convey how disappointed I am in him and his attitude to our family. I do half the childcare, which is mostly lovely or fine, occasionally difficult, at least half the housework, earn all the money, make all the plans for the future - all my money is OUR money saved for the big things like a better house, DS's education, holidays. DH says he can't wait to be properly working (a year away) ? but he has implicitly indicated that he wants to work his way through his dream list of cars and pursue his own dreams and do his own thing more - money is the only thing that?s stopping him now.

When DS acts up, he swears at him and it is horrible to listen to. Sometimes he sits with him in the playroom but doesn't talk or interact, just stares into space. 70% of the time though he's either good or great.
I made him go to the doctor for depression and he did, but he thinks that his reaction is entirely rational and therefore can't be a mental health issue, so he hasn?t taken it any further. I am angry with him and love him a little less each day. Conversation and general chit chat is poor, we do talk about our issues but never seem to get anywhere. But I am terrified of how I would manage on my own, because of logistics of looking after our son, for one. Weekends are bad because we don't know what to do with ourselves - we fill the time but DH isn't having any fun and that in turn puts me right on edge. Work is a relief in one way, but very stressful sometimes as I said in the beginning.

I cannot believe that this is my life now. I wish I was with someone fun and energetic who liked being a dad. DH says it was a mistake in hindsight to have DS. I don't think that (although I did when I was really ill), and would consider a second, if we got a nanny to help me get over the baby stage, which I hated. I get better with kids the older they are.

Any advice please? Do I stay or go? Any insight into what is going on in DH?s head and whether he is likely to change?

Sorry despite best efforts this has been so long.

Kaluki, he isn't a SAHP. He does two days a week of childcare. That's the reality of it. Two days of childcare and a part-time masters is not a full contribution to the family's life! And ANYONE who treats a toddler that way is not someone who should be in sole charge of them, gender an irrelevance. My DH is a brilliant dad and would no more swear at or ignore DS than fly (unless woken at 3 am for an hour, which is why I do nights!).

OP, good luck. And hating the baby year is really, really common. Anyone who says differently can't have many parent friends.

Yes, I am one of those women who doesn't like babies, but that's one year out of a lifetime, does it mean I shouldn't be a parent?? I know I'm not the only one, even my own psychiatrist said he and his wife were the same!!

Is it just me?

it's not just you

Hey, OP, it's not like how a mother cares for her baby in its first year is vitally important, is it?!

Whatneworry, it is NOT just you.

OP, you seem overly concerned and obsessed with your DH's happiness and needs. He comes across as a massive, parasitic twat who is damaging your son. You think 70% Nice Daddy makes up for 30% shit, neglectful and scary?! Believe me, that 30% will be what shapes that little boy, not the 70%. Happy, bonded children do not cling to their parent the way you described. Damaged, confused, desperate children cling because they want their primary carer to love them and they feel so insecure that they will cling to the very one that makes them that way. You know how things are are terrible, otherwise you wouldn't have posted on here. I know frankness is hard to take, but don't attack us. We're not the ones taking you for a ride or spending almost a third of our time with our child being horrid to him...

Not read the whole thread but got as far as despoticdad saying some men don't like or are not very good at childcare.

Can we drop the gender thing here? Small children are boring and annoying and many many people find childcare boring and annoying. I do. Lots of childcare is little more than drudgery and there's nothing about women that makes them better at drudgery than men.

I think this is the only difference between men and women - and it's not innate, it's just learned: some men still think they can opt out of family life whereas most women know the buck stops here. Once you are parent (parent not mother or father - it doesn't matter which you are) you lose a lot of autonomy and have to get through a lot of drudgery. These are the facts of parenting.

So I have sympathy with the man in this situation who is obviously hating being stuck at home (as women have hated it for decades hence 50s housewives on valium and the Rolling Stones Mother's Little Helper). But he has lots more freedom than most of us as well as lots of choices (to get a job, for example). So bottom line, he needs to get a grip. Either choose to do the childcare and commit to it without whinging or find another way (get a job and outsource the care to someone who can do it with better grace).

Disclaimer - I do get a lot of joy out of my children. But I would never choose to stay at home with them and thankfully I have the choice not to. This is the best thing I've read about parenting - it captures the joy and the awfulness. Why Parents Hate Parenting Perhaps OP's husband should read it, realise this is the nature of parenting, however you choose to manage it, and grow up a bit.

I'm too WhatmeWorry and OxfordBags...

You're a total stranger on the net to us too OP. It was me who suggested parenting courses, and I stand by the suggestion. If you have some preconceived notion that they're only for crackheads and abusers, you're wrong. They can be very beneficial. Mum took them when she left my father, and she's the best mum in the world. All the mugs are actually about MY mum ladies Hell, I'll probably take them too.

It comes across like you put your husband before your son. Needs to be sons needs foremost and always.

I took a parenting course too, along with lots of other very nice Mums from my Church. We all found it very helpful, and I would say everyone was at least okay parents before it.

Excellent post drjohnsonscat

drjohnsonscat - I haven't read the whole of that NYT article yet, but even from the first paragraph I get that sinking feeling when total incompetents tell me about their parenting woes:

"When I opened our apartment door, I discovered that my son had broken part of the wooden parking garage I?d spent about an hour assembling that morning. This wouldn?t have been a problem per se, except that as I attempted to fix it, he grew impatient and began throwing its various parts at the walls, with one plank very narrowly missing my eye. I recited the rules of the house (no throwing, no hitting). He picked up another large wooden plank. I ducked. He reached for the screwdriver. The scene ended with a time-out in his crib."

She's expecting behaviours of her 2.5 year old that are totally out of line with his biological developmental stage. "I recited the rules of the house" "... time-out in his crib". WTF???! She is getting it all wrong and then blaming the children.

Most parents are incompetents when they begin. Bottom line - OP doesn't like babies, the DH doesn't mind them. The OP wants an indefinably better husband who is more fun. The DH is finding childcare boring and would like to return to work. The OP wants another baby but needs the DH at home to look after it. The OP seems a little highly strung and so I would really like the DH's take on this before I hang him out to dry because the description of his bad behaviour with the ds clashes with the OP's description of how the ds really is. So does the dh occasionally curse within earshot of the ds and dump him infront of the telly? Is the OP just discontented generally?

Agree lookbehindyou

We only ever hear one side on threads, and there's a lot more to this then meets the eye.
I still think its a classic situation where each of them entered into it willingly, as people do when there's something theyre getting out of it. In her case, husband at home to do the childcare because she doesn't particularly like babies and wanted to pursue her career; in his case, to give up a job he hated. That could have all worked out fine IF they were both truly happy and fulfilled with their lives- but they're so clearly not. FWIW I think it's entirely normal to change, and what seems like a great idea at one point in time, seems very different a year or two down the line. Many women think they'd like to stay at home, and then within a couple of years are realising they want a different balance in their life. Theres nothing wrong with that, but the key is to communicate like an adult to eachother, and also to be realistic about what can change and what can't be. . The dh is being very unfair if he's moaning that having a child was a mistake etc because that's obviously something that is
irreversible! But if he were to be PROACTIVE and say, actually, even 2 days childcare isn't for me; I'll get a job and we'll put ds in nursery, that would be a positive suggestion on how to move forward. It seems he's he type of person who moans about what he doesn't want rather than takes control of his life though. IF the op is accurate in what she says of course. The dh might have quite a different perspective on it- eg if we were to see a post from him, he might be writing that he felt railroaded into having a kid and staying home.

Some honest adult communication is the only way forward. It also goes without saying that the op would be mad to consider bringing another child into this right now. The only reason to have another is that they BOTH want one and are grown up enough to deal with the changes it will bring

Agreed, Janey. Total madness to be considering another baby at the moment.

bonsoir I think that's the whole point of the piece - our expectations are way out of line with reality.

We build fancy toys for our kids, romanticising the fun times we'll have together, when they'd rather jump on the toy and then whack us in the eye with it. Then we get upset because parenting isn't how we thought and imagine other people are doing it all better, start blaming our kids, our partners, ourselves. Cue boredom, depression, irritation. Repeat to fade for 20 years

Another disclaimer: I get a lot of joy out of my kids. Honestly I do. But Jeez!

The other thing which strikes me is whether both of them are just being rather 'entitled'.

When you look at the bare facts: couple in their early 30s, mortgage free, one parent not working and one doing a 4 day week, one child only... I mean c'mon, how hard can it all be...

I'm not diminishing the ops achievements btw because clearly to have paid off her mortgage by that stage she's done very well career wise, I'm just saying that for many couples in their 30s, what's described is pretty rosy in terms of actual lifestyle.

Of course, if the relationship is rubbish, the loveliest lifestyle in the world won't compensate. But maybe they could both do with taking a look at what they've got and appreciating it

I've read the piece now. I don't share the sentiments it expresses particularly. I agree that having children generates an awful lot of routine care (I don't think of it as either drudgery or chores) that is very binding and confining. But if you always keep uppermost in your mind that you should at every moment be teaching your DC to do things for themselves, in accordance with their own personal developmental level, you can find a lot of satisfaction and pleasure in those routines.

Time out in the crib? Ha ha ha.

You wouldn't share the sentiments. It's an American piece. They have very short maternity leave, no subsidised child or health care and high intensity (long hours) work.

And what do you know about my own circumstances that are different to those?

Are you in America?

No, I'm not in America, but I think you are very condescending to assume that I am unable to understand that the article was written in a cultural context that I am unable to understand!

Understanding and relating are different things. I made a comment. I made no judgement call on you. You could be a barrister or retired and obsessed with topiary.

Yes you did! You made a judgement that I am unable to understand the cultural context in which that piece was written and that therefore my feelings about it were not valid. You should be a bit more careful - not everyone hiding behind a user name is a some kind of worzel gummidge

Nope. You put your own spin on what I said.

I'm not in America either but I do completely share the sentiments. Every word of it resonates with me. And I do try to be fairly hands-off, non-romanticising etc.

Bonsoir doesn't see it that way but that's not because she's not in America. It's because she experiences it differently. Fair enough. No need to challenge her on that - she just sees it differently.

Although I'm going to stick by "drudgery" to describe the 3x per day that I am wiping crap off the table and trying to keep chaos under control and then and getting to work to find my jacket shoulder smeared with yogurt .

Nobody likes every stage of their childs life. If they say they do they are liars!
I loved the newborn phase, I find them fascinating when they are helpless and enjoyed watching them develop little personalities of their own.
I found the wilful toddler to preschool age absolute hell. It is drudgery and soul destroying and messy.
Once they went to school I loved every minute of it again and now my oldest is a preteen it reminds me of the toddler phase I disliked but I'll get through it like I did then.
If all that makes me a shit parent then tough - I still adore my kids and they seem to be pretty OK so far!

I didn't 'challenge' ffs. I made an off the cuff comment with no judgement behind it at all. And I made it because I have lived and worked in NY and it was tough. My colleauge came back to work after 4 weeks maternity because she knew her job would be gone. We had insurance that covered child health care but lots of people don't have that and it's a huge stress. The UK is nuts too (I am English) and I spend most of my time pleading and negotiating with child minders. I am at the moment living in a Benelux country and all things to do with children is brilliant. I'm not saying I find the country all perfect but our family life is way WAY less stressful.