Turning Tavern IV - Down Bi the riverside, near the well of loneliness...

[NotForProfit]

Hi all,

thought i'd be proactive and start a new thread for the wenches of the turning tavern as the old thread's pretty much full...

for anyone new to this, it's a thread for women suddenly finding themselves attracted to another woman, so grab a glass of something intoxicating, pull up a chair by the fireside and we'll try to help one another deal with the elation, confusion and heartache of rediscovering your sexuality.

*are fancying

*if she entertained it

also wanted to ask - how is it obvious, do you think, to everyone that you are bordering on being in love? do you also have expressive eyes like CW or something else?

the pint is I want it to make obvious to wiq, if there was any doubt/insecurity, without tellung directly for now. But without coming across as a complete weirdo with tongue hanging out, as you'd put it!

I suppose I am experienced with men (lots of boyfriends/flings etc until i met dh 10 yrs ago) and i was always very good at telling who fancied me and sort of subtly engineering them into asking me out through eye-contact, flirting etc, without ever really having to make the first move myself (even though i'd actually made hundreds of little moves in terms of makeup, clothes just 'being there' when i knew/ hoped he would be). I suppose i'm just working on the assumption that here the rules are basically the same!

Except, of course men are expected to be pro-active in sexual matters and as we're all women, none of us are. So things are going to be that much more drawn out and tentative until one of us cracks.

With CW, i've just never in all my years had another woman look at me that way. Ok, not since some homo-erotic friendships in secondary school. I'm working on the assumption that as apart from them, the only people who've ever looked at me that way have been men who wanted to get in my pants, she must do too! I could be wrong, there's no denying that. My methods aren't foolproof of course. I suppose a look is one thing to receive and another to describe in words, so perhaps the medium of MN doesn't help. I also haven't seen her look at anyone else that way...

With WIQ i'm not 100% sure, but i feel i have to trust my intuition that there is something there. In terms of my assumption that she's been with other women, your point is a good one. If I stop and ask myself what I'm actually going on it doesn't seem to amount to much;

*no kids yet so until now she's had relationships where kids weren't on the agenda... possibly with women. But then again, not everyone is childless through choice, as i'm sure many mners would flame me for even beginning to suggest!

*many years spent travelling.. possible 'mind broadening experiences.'? again, its tentative at best!

*chemistry between us - i'd be flattering myself to think i'm the first, i think. She definitely appreciates the female form.

*just a general vibe of worldliness and tolerance. Seems equally at home with men and women.

• sort of unexplained periods of isolation which she sometimes tells me about, which makes me wonder what she got up to...i imagine her picking up women, rather than just men and taking them home to the place where she lived by herself for a while...

See, not much to go on at all!

well yes, all valid, if you assume she's so well adjusted that she never had lonely periods in her life, or got up to something else (i.e. drugs), but you aer probably right pirely because you do seem to tune in very sharply to people generally (what's called a 'sensory' type) - as far as their sensual side/tastes goes. It really helps as hell. I had lots of flings/r-ships with men too and usually knew men fancied me but I was often mista me as to the depth of attraction. And it IS a bummer expecting someone to initiate as that's what we got used to - I initiated with men but usually with bad results later on, and it's stuck I suppose.
I've cottoned on the idea (a while ago) that I need to up the ante and look at my wiq not just admitingly, like a have been before, but like I would at a man i fancy (or like a man would look at her but in a more gentle way) - I must say snce I've been doingthat there were some very vibe-y episodes with her (although it happened way back in the beginning too once, from her end). I still do NOT understand why is she holding back. I dread to think it's for some moral reasons re my age (theoretically COULD be her daughter if she had a child very early) - now I'm listening to you observing these women and thinking that she may ewll realised a while ago that I'm attracted..she is worldly and as I recently discovered quite up for it with men (several menafter her etc) but she does come across as one of the boys on ghe other hand, which sort of gives me hope. I'm worried she may see me as vulnerable for various reasons (circumstances of my life when I met her, cross roads/almost crisis in my way of living which I won't go into), she does obviously takes CARE occasionally, you know in a kind way, but she can also be very off with me. Then she does respond to flirtiness as well but ALWAYS lets it pass/stops it after afew seconds. It's bloody mind boggling. If only I knew what excatly is stoping her I would know what to say or how to act - without it I can be doing the wrong thing if I 'pitch' it incorrectly.

*often mistaken

In terms of other things she might've got up to... I don't think hard drugs were ever an issue (can usually tell when people have had past experience of those - again growing up I came across quite a few people who did) although i imagine she did the usual weed-related stuff! I think most people have been through lonely times... i'm feeling it myself today, even though i'm surrounded by people.

Yes, looking at her a bit like a man would, but more gently, sounds like it's working for you! Maybe just get to the very vibey stage by doing this, and then dare yourself to take it up another notch? (tell yourself life is short, perhaps this chance won't come again, etc... )Not sure how... we're sort of learning together, aren't we?

I also let the flirtiness stop afer a few seconds with WIQ... because i'm afraid she'll lose interest, and also afraid that she won't.

Perhaps i've been hedging my bets with these women? Now i'm starting to wonder if perhaps neither has a realistic chance of actually happening... in a bit of a sulk because i was expecting to see CW today and didn't. Perhaps i've been kidding myself she was interested... and as for WIQ, god knows.

looks like you ARE having a wobbly day - there is no doubt whatsoever (and you know it) that CW is interested, and I think it's very realistic with her and a lucky chacne of distraction from (much more unrealistic) wiq. She is single, I assume? but in any case she obv regrets not seeing you, must have had reasons. I only see my wiq once in two, or at best, one week, so missing a day or two is nthing to be sad about, looks like your heart is growing fonder . Maybe next time also escalate it a bit with CW?
I'm amazed you stop the flirting after few seconds even though you aer very interested in wiq - maybe mine is doing the same (you always give me hope with these comments!). Btw do you put kisses in the messages when you text or email? (cross I mean, obv)
Yes, I think that's exactly what I'll do - I already was dwelling on it last night, there was a very vibey moment (or mements eveb) last time but unfortunately someone else was around and could hear from a diff room, so couldn't say anything (not that I had courage tbh), but if these repeat another time then I will..also thinking how best to take it up a notch. That's assuming she doesn't give me another cold shoulder next time! I mean there aer two ways - verbal and something like taking her hand (scary but so exciting) not sure which is better.

I have returned to MN to see if I could view posts about situation similar to mine and this is the closest.

Would love you advice as I have no one bar the WIQ to talk to.

I'm 47, married, 2 DC 7 and 5. My lovely DH knows I have dated and slept with women prior to my 18 year relationship with him. He knows that I was or have been bi-sexual.

My friendship with WIQ was initially based around our similar backgrounds, our locality and our DC - same age, same sex. We hang out alot. We talk and talk and talk. We have now kissed, recognised the sexual energy and come clean with respective DHs. Mine says we are being greedy by wanting to maintain marriages but having fun together.

I love my DH. We have wonderful sex and I want to stay with him. I also want him to understand my desire for intimate relationship with the WIQ. I want to be able to vocalise my feelings, to reassure him that its not about something he doesn't give me but something only a girl can give.

Hi Emma, all sounds similiar to NotForProfit situation, though in her case one of the partners would not be accepting it seems, and nothing happened with her wiq apar from a lot of vibes. I'm not experienced in sexual side, but I think it's all reasonably positive, as your H must have thought that sooner or later you may be attracted. It's great that all is out in the open and H always knew you wre bi. Did nothing happen so far 18yrs? (surprised!) Is her H also not shocked that she is bi? Is she experienced, or was it your intiative?
I can see of course why your H would be worried, I know you like sex with him etc but if you went full-blown with the wiq, he may well suffer from a lull in sexlife or at least it would be reduced (IF your sexlife was very active that is). It sounds to me that you very stable emotionally so unlikely will fall in love with wiq to distraction, as yo know you love DH. I think just fun would be fine with him, but still every situation has its risks - she may fall for you and cause problems in their marriage, or as I say sex frequency may suffer but maybe you can reassure him on that if you have alot of stamina, or if he can take less.

On te other note, can I ask you what is it that only a girl could give - sorry if this is daft but I'm not experienced and more importantly I want to feel confidence that what I want to offer my wiq is of value (as I've no idea whether she's been with women or not - but also for my own confidence as I want to suggest things to her). I know it's supposed to be more affectionate etc, but sexually speaking, is there some advantage being with a woman (if it's too personal, please PM me).

Thanks for your reply Likea. I'll happily answer your Qs as I know talking about this is so going to help.

Nothing has happened in 18 years; I've window shopped but never wanted more than the fantasty (if you know what I mean). The lovely WIQ has been openly bi-curious but not acting on it. Since the honesty about meeting me has improved their marriage and sex life, her DH is happier.

Strangely, I am very content with my life, and ceratinly wasn't lookng for this. DH and DC are and always will be my main priority. I do not want to jeopardise that and neither does she. It won't be fair to expect respective DH to allow sex at each others' house so I don't want to do this under his nose. I think it would add something to my relationship with my DH; if he can give me the permission/the liberty to do this, then the love & respect I would have would be enormous.

Kissing a girl who will never have stubble is soft and exciting. Feeling another womans breasts and rubbing breasts together is beyond any sexual experience with a man. Need I say more!

Your H does have some reservations though - did you ask what exactly? I think if it's fear that you will go emotional/irrational then you should easily assure him. If it's him being starved for sex - as honestly, I doubt it that when you aer in 'honeymoon' stage with wiq you will have that my energy fo him (and it's not a threesome) - well, you could try to explain that your sexlife wouldn't suffer though can you honestly say that, to start with? If he is purely jealous that you have more fun than he does (i.e. he should then also come up with similar requests) then it's more difficult and can be a big issue. If she is only bi curious though, you never know how she will behave if things happen, as it's her first she MAY become emotionally attached (?), but that's not strictly an issue for you and your H.
God, the way you describe it is already exciting . But still it's all sexual but more on a foreplay front - I'm more worried how satisfying can it be all the way, as you can get really aroused but not know how to finish so to speak (I know yo know what you aer doing, but I don't know and if wiq doesn't either it could all be v.frustrating) - so do pm with any tips, a bit embarassing to go into details on here!

too many 'know' in that sentence!

another one that you CAN reply on here to - what was the difference between 'window shopping' women and wiq? purely that you had a lot in common? I'm really worried (as everyone knows) that wiq is a lot older and we have a lot of different interests, even though some similar - I mean is it a prerequisite to build close friendship before being interested enough to act on it? Seems like many seccuss stories on here started with v.close friendship. we aer friendly and known each other for months, but not v.close as in sharing personal info, or going out together.
Also with a bi curious woman, would you wait for her to come up to you (did your wiq do that?) so that you dont get rejected if mistaken, or would you approach first as you are more confident?

I'm starting to suspect that my wiq might have had some experience in the past, though it wasn't too active, she was married and now also dates men (but no full time bf). She's been eyeing me up quite a bit lately (I do a lot anyway, but she's sort of unshocked about the looks, i.e. 'look all you like' ), though still not acting on it. No idea what her reservations are, possibly age gap.

outmy!!! great that you are ok, been worried a bit. why was your week crap - nothing to do with wiq I assume? just read a few last pages to catch up, it's all there. I had quite a good week as wiq was nice (I think it's all on prev two pages, since monday).

Welcome Emma! your's sounds quite a tricky situation, with DHs involved etc. Am slightly that you've already kissed, etc, as i'm nowhere near that with either of the women i've been having 'moments' with recently. I'm interested in learning how you became so close, how long it took, and also whether you or your WIQ had many close female friends around when you too started getting to know each other? If you could let me know if my situation rings any bells with yours, that would be great.

Hi Outmy! Good to see you. Hope all is well and that the end of term isn't bringing you down too much.

Likea - did she actually say 'look all you like'? If so, you're well in, I reckon!

The woman at my school gates (the blatant one) is also married (how did I forget to mention that?) with dcs so if i ever pluck up the courage to act on what she's putting out there, i could well end up with a similar situation to Emma's. If only!

NotFor, no she didn't say 'look all you like' just seems quite comfortable (not annoyed or quizzical) with it, even though we both really look each other up and down slowly and without concealment (but obv politely, no mad grinning in the same time ) - it's just i was doing it for a while, and she is doing more recently than before.
Oh she's married too - bugger! well maybe dh is ok with it though, whereas your wiq's P is not - that's how it looks! Bear in mind they may be looking for threesomes, so she may be hunting in that way, but I hope not. Do up the ante with her a bit, I think she may then say something, it's not really up to you only.
I'm also interested and already asked how did she get this far with this particular woman, and not others, but she did say they just had a lot in common with dc and generally, it does help to be thrown together daily , work is not so good like in your case, and partly Outmy's. awkward if it goes wrong later.

outmy, your post appeared when i sent mine already - will reply in a bit! I didn't say I'd give up yet, said i needed a breather/break, but did say i wonb't shut hte door for a bit if she is nice or forthcoming. Will write more in short while. Hope your kid is all right now? that's the last thing you need though possibly did distract from wiq even though not in a pleasant way.

Ok LIKEA,reply when you have time hun. Am intrigued now!! You say that she is looking you up and down more now? Is this in response to you cooling off?

yes outmy, I've been waiting for you to go into more detail as no one does 'detailed' like the two of us! also new posters don't know all the long back stories from previous threads so it would be lost on them - and I couldn't repeat it all. I feel like I know your wiq very well, and you know mine. Anyway I went there with intention of being just friendly and try to put emotion on backburner, and lo and behold she was really nice from minute one so of course I melted and was back with all my best efforts and mild flirting later.She sort of showed CARING for me whe i turned up, small things but i just felt cared for (obv this may be just in a friendly way from her, but it's stiull so nice after she was off last time) - she did a small thing for me which she said last timeshe doesn't want to do - but she did and emphathised to me 'see, I did this' - so you see when she's off she then sometimes regrets it! then she was fussing a bit as to whehter i have unmbrella as it may rain - I had it anyway (she really didn't have to' and so on other small but nice touches. Next day i saw her in the evening when I had an interesting day and sort of imposed my tales on her a bit when sdhe was sitting there trying to watch tv - she was a bit cool then. listened but without much emcouragement but i sort of warmed her up a little. Then i went to do something in the litchen and she followed in a while but after she had a glass of wine (or two) - well, suddenly all sunshine and humourous. She asked me to give her some object which i did and we touched fingers a bit (normally she pointedly avoids it and i 'm always disappointed that she tries not to touch even slightly) - whether it's because she was a bit drunk and didn't coordinate or deliberate (also because drunk)I don't know but I immediately glanced at her reaction and she was also looking into my face same time as if we both were checking reaction - God the crumbs i get (it was so nice to touch fingers). Then we joked a bit about her dropping things when drunk and she then was going to bed and I kind of pintedly said 'good night' and looked in her eyes and smiiled (this was at distance) and she was already walking but stopped and held eye comtact a bit as if hesitating or wanting to say smth, but then went to her room. The thing is i felt so good then that I would have said something if it wasn't for someone else being around in next room. I wish such moments came up whe nit's just two of us (so rare). Then briefly saw her on wednesday daytime and she was really nice again and laughed with me about something silly, bu tit was RESPONSIVE and warm, not closed of and indifferent like she can be sometimes. She was also really nice to me in front of someone, like inclusding me in convo when it wasn't needed, as if we were a team. Of and when she was a bit drunk the eve before (when we laughed a bit about things) she as standing next to me to my side, and i was drinking tea at that moment but could see her with peripheral vision (she thought i was looking sraight ahead as was facing that way) she really looked at ny body slowly, you know starting from bust level and then down and down (I was not in revealing clothes but quite figure hugging) and just really lingered though couldn't tell what she was thinking, not obv. So after Wednesday I was walking around like a lunatic grinning and feeling very happy about the two good days and just feeling joy and picturing happy scenes with wiq and some sensual toughts too - it's completely irrational! shedidn't give any concrete hope but I just felt high as a kite next few days! I just think can it be possiby NOTHING there if i felt so happy aftewards? I've calmed down today a bit - still daydreams but not so joyful as I may be so so deluded! also i texted her about some future arrangements last night and ther was a short exchange and then I said good nigt to her - she used to just let it be, but she did text same in return - you know it's nothig but it's just those little differences from previous behavoiur, it was just nice ot say good nt to each other. I'm such a fool, honestly! as to the man - well that's one thing i was pleased about that she didm't go for drinks on monday as she seemed to always meet him on min eves, so I don't know whether he's abroad or not meeting, or they changed days. I now got jealous about a girl staying with her who she was praising to the slies as to how nice she was - she is quite pretty, I was wanting to ak 'do you fancy her, too?' but honestly was really jealous at some point thinking that she may do. The girl is even younger than me but not gay.