Turning Tavern IV - Down Bi the riverside, near the well of loneliness...

[NotForProfit]

Hi all,

thought i'd be proactive and start a new thread for the wenches of the turning tavern as the old thread's pretty much full...

for anyone new to this, it's a thread for women suddenly finding themselves attracted to another woman, so grab a glass of something intoxicating, pull up a chair by the fireside and we'll try to help one another deal with the elation, confusion and heartache of rediscovering your sexuality.

cross posts re boho - I love Sienna's style, it's never ott.

Likea - i know just what you mean, i've known i wasn't straight since, well, always. but this is the first time i've ever been able to really see myself with another woman. but that's because of the whole package, the complex, beautiful and flawed person that i've come to know gradually over the past few months.

i actually think it was getting to know her insecurities a little bit which made me realise i was attracted to her. A couple of times i've said something flippant or silly in an off-the-cuff way and been surprised when she's looked genuinely hurt and hasn't been able to maintain her boss-like demeanour, which might sound weird but i suppose that was an indicator for me that my opinion, and how i thought of her actually mattered to her in any way.

not that i was being rude to her or anything. just playful and cheeky, but something in her eyes communicated to me that she's more sensitive than she appears, and it was something she couldn't dress up with words as she does most things, if that makes sense? her eyes said it all and i had no idea what to do with it, because at that stage i wasn't fully aware of how i felt, let alone anything else... and dh was there on that occasion, which didn't help. sorry if i'm not making much sense. think it might be time to close the laptop for the evening. but not before pouring you all one of these

thanks NotFor - I'd love a glass of red. I understand exctly - it's my wiq's vulnerability at one time which really got my heart. I never had a moment like this with men - it was more about passion with the best, but with her I felt so protective!

mind you, she wasn't being vulnerable to whati said (I wish i had a moment like that- it's me who is always vulnerable to her words if unkind) - it was a general moment when no one was there but me. But it must have been extremely touching if she showed her sensitive nature to you in particular!

It's weird, isn't it Likea?like you, i've never really felt protective over a man either. It hits you in a totally different way when you fall for a woman, it seems.

Did either of you find that once you had started to come to terms with your sexuality inwardly, you began to project more of a vibe that other women (not just WIQ) seemed to pick up on? There's a very cute mum up at the school who it's dawning on me, has been eyeing me up for a while now... before, depending on my mood, i just thought she was being friendly or nosy. Saw her when i was with dh today and afterwards he was like 'what's going on? she couldn't take her eyes off you!' So maybe i'm putting something out there... weird

I haven't noticed attention from other women but I don't really look tbh, I sort of tend to be in my thoughts atm unless someone is 'in my face' , from non-strangers - no as they aer all hetero. I'd say wiq and I look at each other a lot as in 'eyeing up' but I'm not sure whether with her it's an innocent look at what i'm wearing - I do look at her more though - and umnlike outmy I'm not at all embarassed as my looks aer admiring/friendly, what's there to be embarassed about. But I'm tongue tied with her very often which really doesn't help. I speak my mind, i mean, but find it hard to relax/joke as I've become anxious of what she thinks of me during this crush. Yesterday some woman in a shop did stare a bit but I don't think it was anything sexual. I think you project a LOT more as you knew you were bi for a long time and are open about it to someone at least (your H), I did tell my male friend but he's knocking it now (i.e. I'm barking up the wrong tree) so it sort of makes me be very careful taking this potential new indentity as i may well have to go back to the old one iykwim.

do you think he means you're barking up the wrong tree regarding this wiq in particular or regarding women as a whole?

wiq in particular, although he was very encouraging to start with. He is also mainly emphasising her age (and our age gap) and that she's unlikely to change her life or perception of her by others at this stage! I agree, but I think she may be attracted in a m,oresecretive way (sometimes I'm sure of it, I really am), and I suspect, as i mentioned if someone offered just a bit of sex she may have agreed but the issue is I'd want more (if it all worked) as have emotions towards. As to others - well he wouldn't think I was bi as I ve always had male partners, but he prob wont discount it.

He says if she wanted something she would have moved things along by now, and even if she feels anything it's not strong enough - but when i recently mentioned she dates a man he said she probably has no interest in women whatsoever.

I'm still having a strong feeling that if we were thrown together into regular contact (work, hobby) like you aer with yours, something WOULD have developed as she would have a proper chanbce to get to know me - I just know she'd like me a lot of she gave it a chance, we really aer compatible, but as it is, brief meetings, and she just chooses to keep distance and be friendly but not close - it's because she's not bloody give it a chance and be a bit bravea nd openminded (I know, I know, her social life is inportant to her and she doesn't want to shock people) but it could have been done gradually if she had no choice but to get to know me - as it is I'm trying to suggest things (to go to) at times but she's always hesitant, maybe scared tbh of what it can lead to.

she wouldn't give it a chance*

yes being forced to be together for some reason can pay dividends! then again, you can tire of one another more quickly. which is a latent fear for me with my WIQ, and perhaps why i'm reluctant to get to know her better, in case she finds me dull or pretentious. or both.

not sure about 'most people being straight'. I've been doing quite a bit of research on the subject (dh keeps making that 'Friends' joke about how you have to take an exam or they won't let you do it!) and according to some article 46% of people have had a same sex experience.

outmy, but is it even an option for you to date men again? I thought not, so meeting a woman is the only way - unless you aervery happy single. Internet is really not just 'weirdos' on dating sites but it's a needle in a haystack and you'd always feel like you are competing with all their other choices - it's ok for people with very thick skin, OR you have to be very lucky (which may happen as you deserve it after all this!) you could give it a go and if nothing happens, fine. I think it's easier option than going to full on clubs!
I think you should have been much more brazen with wiq and sod it if she thought itwas inappropriate as a teacher - she started it, but also she could always tell you if it was uncomfortable. I think you shouldtry and raise your confidence about who you are, you know a man in your situation wouldn't even think how much to look - he'd jusyt look cos he enjoed it - I think it works with women (obv within reason, and if there is a response). It is a bit surprising though that you were brave to write/tell her but then kept losing your nerve to look or to talk and demamd some answers about her behaviour. I'm braver with wiq genrally - i look and I did send her texts that were hints, but still not brave enough to be direct - so I'm also not confident enough. I'm trying to picvture scenarios when we both were much more 'bullish' - whether that would have got much better results.

NotFor do you think what i described as my friend's opinion has validity? I did repeat it hoping you could coment! Would you be held back by age gap (15+) and social opinions?

'some article' probably doesnt' sound like very reliable evidence i might add that it was cited on Wikipedia, so there you go, it's the gospel!

sorry, Likea me heads' all over the place. in all honesty i thought perhaps he might have a secret ulterior motive, maybe being into you himself, to dismiss the possibility on the basis that she's seeing a man at present. that's probably a crazy thing for me to suggest, as you know your friend, and i don't! The thing about the 15 year age gap and social opinions probably does hold some water, but then again probably depends entirely on individual circumstances. I'm sure if I was part of a 'scene' i'd be able to give countless examples of people i know having relationships with other women 20 or so years older or younger... certainly happens enough in the straight world.

You know what, Outmy, I think i sort of understand. I sometimes have visions of myself just blurting it out, or trying to snog her at an inappropriate point, yet the thought of small- scale flirting is quite intimidating, possibly because there are so many conceivable variables, or ways she could interpret what i've said, many of which wouldn't get us to the desired point. and yet i'm sure that like your WIQ she would probably find such directness a bit of a turn-off. She likes word-play and eye contact and hinting. Although there's a part of me that really enjoys all that too, i can't help but wish sometimes we could cut to the chase! I suppose i should just try to enjoy it really, cos when i look back at my straight relationships quite often the best bit was the chase and the 'do they, dont they?' butterflies in your stomach feeling... and then the bit where you're suddenly drunkenly snogging and wondering whether it's actually real!

I can relate to a lot of what you say about attitudes to homosexuality where you grew up. Not so much within my immediate family where my mum thought Julian Clary was the funniest man on tv but there was that expectation that I would grow up to be straight because being gay was for other, distant people. Then within my extended family there's a lot of religious dogmatism which doesn't help. I must have over a hundred combined cousins, aunts, uncles etc and none of them are gay, apparently!

Then at school it was pretty rough and 'gay' and 'lezza' were the two worst things you could be called. During the 6th form quite a few of my gay friends started coming out, and it was very brave of them as there was still a lot of prejudice around, but any attempts I made to try to explain that I thought I was Bi, were pretty much drowned out, and there was jsut as much prejudice from the gay people i knew as the straight ones! I used to hear things like 'oh she/he's just trying it on, it's a fashion thing' and I thought 'how the heck can I come out when people will just assume I'm phoney?' so i let them all think i was a straight 'fag hag'. You say you're 90% sure you're gay, well I'm probably equally sure I'm Bi, but I can't help feeling I don't really fit in anywhere. Unless my WIQ and the other woman I mentioned form some kind of local club that I don't know about (I can dream!) then there doesn't seem to be any community for people who are like me... 60/40 or 50/50.

outmy - I don't think I've done well with wiq, no. She is, i think, a more direct type - with men she is for sure, I heard her talk/flirt and it's all very upfront, and maybe all my subtle/sophisticated signals just don't reach her or she is annoyed I'm not brave enough but for some reasondecided that I'm the one who should initiate (being younger?). I'm not unconfident generally in personal life sense, so it's not a great achievement with the eye contact etc (used to it with men, but interestingly now don't feel likeit at all and like you, feel awkward with men with any flirting). I didm't get results so it didn't work - and it's not done much for my self esteem. I almost feel like she is rejecting me as a person - but the hing is she may do this BECAUSE she is scared of getting involved romantically - but as a result she doesn't want closer friendship either which makes me feel horrible. I want to shout to her 'I'm worth getting to know' and she did knock my confidence like no man has dome before as they do nornally finmd me interesting idf they aer also attracted (I've been told I'm deep and amusing) - she just doesn't want to know. I'd trade her friendship even for the sexual side, but how do I say it then - without confessing first that if hse doesn't feel the same we don't HAVE to go diwn that road?
NotFor - you aer spot on about my male friend fancying me, but we have a long history - he tried it seriously on few years ago but he is married (genuinely sexless marriage) and i know his wife and child superficially, so I didn't get involved even though at the start I was quite enarmoured with him - I saw that he was never going to divorce so didm't go there. Since then we remained friends as we really do get on very well and have a work interest in common, I don't fancy him anymore , he still does but he's given up really knowing how I feel about him being married. It did cxross my mind that he has an interest, but the rhing is he was very encouraging early on about wiq - he insisted I should tell her how I feel all this time, that 'hints don't work' etc - I argued they don't work with men and that i was scared to shock her. But this shpows he's not selfish really - it's just after months of talking about her he got fed up and now thinks she's not bi. To be fair I'm also discouraged by her dating a man - who wouldn't be? you say it doesn't ,ean much but it's illogical, especially as he is new, not a long standing partner.
outmy, there is still stigma about being gay - and I'm sure some peole WOULD be disgusted if you approached them, it can be non-pc but some people do find the thought of any 'minority concept' unpleasant, I don't blame then it ;s a personal thing. But also a woman can be disgusted by approaches from a man she doesn't fancy, prob no difference to openminded people than same being done by a woman. I still think most women aer not bi or gay, regardless ofthat research.

Poor Murray by the way - didn't he show his feninine side after the match (who would have thought!).

outmy, as i mentioned my wiq is quite tomboyish in personality (she has a feminine soft side but it's more hidden) - maybe she is like you, finding himts irritating or can't trust them? but you see the difference is you WERE direct with her several times despite your mistakes imbetween, and mine hasn't been, so mayne I should be hoping that that's the main issue (me not being direct). I still haven't given up on tellingher btw, if theright moment comes. I'm just tired for now.

*I should NOT be hoping (end of last post)