Living with a narcissist

[Abitwobblynow]

Is hard. Busy taking one day at a time whilst I work on myself and developing stability. He isn't horrible but he isn't available either.

Anyway, now that my eyes are opened, it is sad/interesting to see the mini-moments that announce his narcness, that I was so blind to before! If I see them, I can either set boundaries or self-soothe to stay calm.

Last weekend, he tells me he bought a Ferrari. *

So, phone rings (he is on a business trip). Telling me about his evening out with adoring female acolytes (he likes them best). I started telling him about two of our friends, who are having issues.

Silence, and then: well then. I must go.

I have come on so much. I used to be destroyed, now I feel vaguely sorry for him. It must be awful to be that empty.

*Don't worry. Whilst I did not cause him, cannot cure him and certainly can't control him, it went down on the list with all the other toys for misappropriation of marital assets when the time comes.

Porridge and Daffy

Anything that moves you forward is fantastic. And it is fascinating to see the patterns of behaviour. My H turned quite noticeably cold towards me when I got pregnant too and I now know he started cheating on me then (although he denied it, it was in my head, I was being stupid - first stage of the manipulation). It was just after my father had died and I was so looking forward to starting a family, but I got this sense of emptiness from H, which sadly I got used to. However, he was so good at being charming and playing the role, that when I got genuinely suspicious that he was cheating with our second DC (text messages etc.) everyone told me that there was no way he'd do that to me - he just wasn't like that. So even more evidence that I was 'being stupid' .

However, I personally object strongly to the 'co-dependent' label. It's nearly always handed out to women with manipulative bastards as partners. Yes the women wanted to feel loved and secure and if you've had a difficult childhood feeling loved is more important. Some women just like company and sex more than others, some women come from cultures where splitting up your family is seen as a terrible thing to do. Some women know that if they split up they will suffer extreme financial hardship. So they go into relationships ready to work at them, compromise and offer empathy and support to their partner.

There is nothing 'co-dependent' in that.

We've seen it again and again, that a manipulative partner doesn't 'suddenly' start being a complete dickhead. He does it slowly - he creeps across those boundaries, he lies, he twists things and chips away at his partners self-esteem. He gets away with it because the woman is in a vulnerable position - because she wants to protect her children and because he's good at what he does.

But I guess it's a personality thing, that I just don't like labels and for other people they are helpful (Same thing with alcoholics - some people find the label useful, others don't). So I get what you are both saying and am not saying it's 'wrong' - there is no 'right' or 'wrong' here. I am pleased that you are both coming out the other side - I just wanted to point out to anyone else reading, that there are other ways of looking at it and as many professionals who dismiss labels like 'co-dependent' as who diagnose them. It's the outcome that's important - moving on up .

Oh God another massive post. Will get on with my work now.

triffid - I'll be printing up your post and putting it on the wall. here bloody here. I've spent a fortune on therapy and years being a depressed blob on the quiet. No more.

I've recently gone NC with my truly appalling family and feel precisely the way you do about your stbx. There is not a blip of sorrow on any level. I've done all my grieving, and how. They push it so far and, as you say, something switches off - for good. the terrifying ex is dead, so that's that seen to - ta ta. There is the slight problem with my daughter (understatement) but I have grieved and dragged myself through life in agony for so long. Enough already.

Great post Triffid.

Since last night there have been wonderful insightful new posts. Sadly PorridgeLovers description of the women N's targets is me to a T and spring daffs I have also been that "depressed blob".

Wow, Springdaffs you are strong to go NC - many years ago I didn't exactly go NC but moved far, far away form my family and it was truly liberating.

triffid - great post.

Hi all, I once started a thread where I tried to describe the need to recognise and stand still in the face of twuntery and MN disgracefully turned on me - I am tough, and I can take it, but what was said to me and what I was accused of was still disgraceful - but here (Eleanor Payne) is a better way of putting what I was trying to tell MN, and it is also why I relate the mini narc moment of the day.

IF I describe it, I am making it conscious. When my counsellor told me that OW being fucked in my bed was the finally UNACCEPTABLY HURTFUL part of A PATTERN of behaviour, it got me thinking. IF OW having sleepovers in 'his' bed when I wasn't there is a 10, my mini-narc moments of the day are .5 and 1 on the scale, but actually? They are the same, the counsellor is right.

"The underlying dynamics are always the same; the experience of being drawn into the NPD person's boundaries, whilst losing track of you own boundaries. If you have codependent tendencies, you may find that you impulses compel you to expose yourself all the more by offering support and becoming more vulnerable. You may continue to invest [love, understanding] in your relationship with the NPD individual in a misguided attempt to bring him round. At this point, you become a willing participant in your own boundary violation.

One of the most helpful tools you can begin to work with is to consciously recognise these dynamics, and develop your own finesse and strength in maintaining the boundaries in the relationship. Your awareness of these behaviours will help you maintain your perspective and retain a sense of your thoughts, needs, and goals in the relationship. ...The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists - Eleanor Payne

So: mini narc moment of the day - we had a task, I suggested a way of doing it. He acted as though I had not spoken and went ahead whilst I was still speaking. Old Wobbly would have complied. New Wobbly spoke up, pointed out the devalueing and lack of respect, insisted I was heard.

He was furious - silently. Furious out of all proportion to what I said. [It is horrible when you notice it, really. My blindness left me anxious and depressed, I don't know what is worse!] Passively aggressively sabotaged the rest of the assignment, would not participate. New me ignored him, and concentrated on the task, which we did without his help.

He absolutely HATES this new me, and it will get me divorced. But, really? What I said was reasonable. 'Listen to me, think about what I am saying, lets discuss the options, lets agree what we will do and then proceed as a team.'

Wow well done NotSoWobbly!

I have tried that tack too - I fixed the problem and when he asked how I simply said "by doing exactly what I told you to do yesterday when you ignored me and said I was wrong".

He nervously laughed and looked a bit shocked all at the same time and I felt 100 feet high.

Unfortunately the same issue recurred a couple of days later and I was unable to fix it again, at which point he then stepped in and sorted it out but even my mini triumph was enough to see the real him when I dare to succeed (disbelieving and shaken out of his comfort zone).

Don't let your H be the one to make the decision, divorcing you because you've found your strength. Build yourself up and make sure you pick your moment so that you stay in the driving seat of this situation. I am in pieces today, but at least it helps to know that this was MY doing, not something forced on me because he didn't want me.

abitwobbly- I find that quote really, really helpful. Not just in relation to STBXH but also my family. Thank you for typing that out.

Oh no DoingIt, do not feel sad please.
The 3rd night is ALWAYS the WORST.

(actually,just made that up,but It sounds true) Tomorrow routine starts. It is all sanity and fairness and normal kind relationships in your household from now on. Because you say so.

Here to you ? ? for having the guts to go down the only sane way for you and DCs.

Any advice on how to deal with my narc ex?

We've been divorced for 7 years now and communication is no easier. Everything is my fault, or my problem to deal with. I've managed to keep communication about the kids but I just want to be able to speak my mind sometimes. I know there's no point really. He'll never accept anything I say.

Everything on this thread is so familiar to me and I'm glad I got out and feel back to being myself again.

Don't engage with him - don't talk to him, don't receive his texts, find a way to not receive his emails. comms re the kids through a book you pass between one another at handovers - keep your entries totally unemotional and focused entirely on the practical goings on with the kids.

Never let him know he's got to you - NEVER. scream, whack the shit out of cushions on the quiet but never ever ever let him know he has got to you. Calm, cool, disinterested. It will drive him wild but that's not your problem: never give in. ever. (got that? )

and read Melanie's link, above. you'll have to settle down because there's a lot of it, but it's worth it to get your head straight.

Mine put me through hell for nearly 20 years - it never changed, went on and on and on, like a train. You may as well stop it now.

The most useful thing I keep reading is detach detach detach. It seems to be the only way to simultaneously keep your own sanity and drive them insane! Win win.

Think I'm feeling worse today as I had hardly any sleep last night, caught DD's D&V bug so was awake all night being ill and now can't go out for a girly night as planned, so stuck in feeling v sorry for myself.

DS just texted saying "we're having lots of fun, daddy is looking after us really well. He took us to Tescos and you'll be glad to hear he continued your legacy of cheapskateness" !!!

He knows that H used to check my receipts to make sure I hadn't been frivolous but obvs being with 'the great man', he's now taking on his version of things.

I even said to H earlier that it would be nicer if he went shopping this afternoon while I had DD at home with me, to save them all trekking round the shops. He disappeared for a couple of hours, but obvs not to go shopping! He'd never have taken them to Tescos previously as its too stressful, but it was obviously easier for him than having to entertain 3 children for a few hours.

...when I say I keep reading the 'detach' thing, its not so easy to actually do

It's very hard to detach.
I have in the past texted that I'm not engaging with him. I guess that's a response though isn't it.
He's so very nice and tries to make out he's being helpful, but I now just wait for the favour he wants in return for picking the kids up from school (just as a one of)

He says he can't work until I stop the CSa claim which is £5 a week, as if he works the CSa will take too much money off him. So it's my fault he doesn't give me more money. Apparently the issue of not trusting him is my issue. Most of the time I can laugh at the shite he truly believes, but sometimes (about once a month) I really want to tell him what a cunt he is.

He only had the dv when it suits him. He refuses to have them in the holidays at all as he can't commit.
Sorry I'm having a rant. Better here than at him as that's what he wants

You'd think after 7 years he wouldn't annoy me so much wouldn't you!

my daughter, at least, is a full-blown narc.

WHY did you tolerate it? My D showed tendencies (after having her whole babyhood indulged by Daddy). The number on big red flag for me was her resistance to being told off, 'receiving' unpleasant information.

I went after her in a big way. I really confronted this.

She is a lovely kid now.

maybe we're talking about two different things Abit. We must be.

Dolly, your guy has got you like

You sound very, very engaged with him - telling him you're not going to engage with him anymore? like duh

I know you're right Spinngy but how does he always manage to be in control even now? He only has the boys when it suits him, yet takes me to court for contact he doesn't want. Won't now commit to any regular contact and only has the dc separately as he can't cope, or says he wants one to one time. He brings them back if they're rude.

I have nI social life to speak of. I pay for everything. I do everything. There is no response, even no contact, that makes him face his responsibilities. I'm wasting my time trying I know, it just makes me so angry.

They never let that control go do they?

I feel for you Dolly, I really do. As long as you are trying to get him to take responsibility you are engaging with him. the deal you've ended up with is not fair but it will destroy you if you try to make it fair iyswim, if you won't let go. the only reason he's playing up is because he knows he's got you every time - push that button and you jump (that's what he gets off on). Have you had any counselling? I'd recommend it to help get your head straight and support to disengage from him. You have to accept he's like he is - I know how hard that is but you can do it.

I totally agree with the mantra to detach - but doingit I disagree with what you say about being in control when it comes to divorce if that only means being the one initiating it. If you truly detach then he will not be getting the attention he needs and might well initiate a divorce. Why would that be a bad thing if you were detached and might well do the same? What is important is the end result for you and any dcs you have, it's not a sports event with winners and losers, if you see it as a battle you are not detached.

I wanted a partner, my exH wanted an adoring soulmate - he thinks he's got that now with the new dw, I think it's a train crash waiting to happen as they are both narcs - but i truly wish him no harm and hope he is happy. I believe I detached enough to not hate him and it enabled me to pity him more than anything else and remember that I was in love with him once. I've been on my own with dcs for 18 months, after being with him for 25 yrs. He divorced me on the grounds of my unreasonable behaviour (a route i suggested) some hiccups - more upset at first than I expected to be - but overall a sense of relief at being in control of my own destiny, finances etc - and my relationship with my dcs is better than ever. my exH is a deeply flawed and wounded person, capable of great cruelty - and thats sad, but really not my problem. We have very little contact (new dw doesn't want him to have a relationship with me) and that's fine too, what little we have is civil and friendly.

I'm not saying my detachment is perfect - but that roller coaster ride of emotions all dependent on his mood is long long gone. I had to detach to survive in the marriage, and that gave me the ability to survive the end of it. Don't detach to drive him mad - that's not detachment, detach to save yourself and protect your own emotional well being.

well said catrus...I think thats the definition of detachment; it's because you are so totally focused on your own goals that you have no time to think of what game he is playing. If he wants to play them, then it's by himself.

abitwobbly- your thread has started a great discussion! How do you mean you 'went after her'? What did you do? Am interested WRT my own DC.

Didn't mean to hijack your thread Abit, just glad to have found a thread on here that I can vent!

It's probably only that one day a month I feel like screaming at him!
His justifications for being a lazy selfish dad get to me sometimes

Beware though! Detaching infuriates a narc esp if it is part of their ASPD. when i cut all email/phone abusive contact attacks on my home started, 18 months into attacks on my home I found out it was him as seen, attacks that lasted nearly 3 years. It was pointed out to me that ex was Attacking so I would go to him for protection for me and ds! If so sick way of trying to get back into our lives...the only thing that works is CCTV even though I have seen him occasionally drive by and once park outside my house in last yr.
When you have the right restraint in place they eventually get bored after many years (hopefully) and leave you be or just can't because they will end up in prison!

NC just for this - Ive just read the first page and in shock - youre describing my DH better than I could (and hes so sure he is unique)!
Reading Daffys link now, but Ive also lost sleep with the kids because his job was too important - "lives at risk, you know" - even though hes often up til 2am other nights
Im trying to set boundaries and detach (think Im another co-dep) but it's hard work. Will keep reading.

screwtop I love the phrase, "he is so sure he is unique". Heard that before!

"hes so sure he is unique!" - aren't they all!? Normal and ordinary is so far 'beneath' H that he'd be horrified to realise that there are so many like him out there! "Lives at risk, you know" Ha how many times I've heard that one - What about me driving the DCs around in a half-dazed fog, being totally responsible for their well-being when I can't think straight? Not the same thing at all.

ISWYM about Wobbly not needing to initiate the divorce CatsRUs. I think I'm struggling with trying to be stronger in myself and also detaching, and I suppose the overlap is a bit awkward. Wobbly has spent many years trying to deal with this behaviour, whereas I've only just found out over the past few weeks what I'm dealing with here.

So many people pointed out narcissism on my threads, but I dismissed it as I couldn't believe this was all a deliberate attempt to undermine me, not just thoughtless/automatic behaviour, but I guess if its a personality disorder, then it is 'natural' and doesn't actually require any conscious effort to be this way, so it isn't as if he sets out on a daily basis to upset me, its more that his default setting is to get what he wants when he wants it and damn anyone else.