Living with a narcissist

[Abitwobblynow]

Is hard. Busy taking one day at a time whilst I work on myself and developing stability. He isn't horrible but he isn't available either.

Anyway, now that my eyes are opened, it is sad/interesting to see the mini-moments that announce his narcness, that I was so blind to before! If I see them, I can either set boundaries or self-soothe to stay calm.

Last weekend, he tells me he bought a Ferrari. *

So, phone rings (he is on a business trip). Telling me about his evening out with adoring female acolytes (he likes them best). I started telling him about two of our friends, who are having issues.

Silence, and then: well then. I must go.

I have come on so much. I used to be destroyed, now I feel vaguely sorry for him. It must be awful to be that empty.

*Don't worry. Whilst I did not cause him, cannot cure him and certainly can't control him, it went down on the list with all the other toys for misappropriation of marital assets when the time comes.

Abitwobbly, I do like your posts today, that's the spirit!

I understand about listing toys and RL. If that's any comfort my threashold at £s wastage, or should we say financial abuse, is really quite high.
I'd be too embarassed too to tell much on MN, or anywhere (will have to at some point, accountant, solicitor, not looking forward to that) I can't believe the story is so common that details might not twig some RL ears. Realist or parano, don't know, but safer.

Saddly, like BryterLayter, have no nice toys to show anymore, just piles of paperwork, and broken DCs.

Acceptance, you say; I read yesterday about saying Yes (!). Yes, this is the situation, yes I accept that this is the reality; only then is it possible to move on.
And self-love. Mwaw. Can't do without it, can't skip this bit. Tricky when you are classically bred in both self loathing high standards. Which smartly brings us round to choice of abusing partners.

So, not such fun when you, his public, are not cut up by his antics anymore and fail to be distraught? Same here, nothing makes him angrier than my telling him to go for it. Used to sob and he would walk past me pretending not to notice. That was more to his taste.

But anyway, there it is. Chin up. Keep going.

Idreamof - I understand fully about the paranoia with posting details. I was desperate for advice on P's bizarre behaviour a few months back and started a thread (under my old name) and got some great advice and amazing offers of help (MN'ers offering to follow him, get me keys for filing cabinets etc) but I got so paraniod that I had been too specific and he would find out that I got the thread deleted, de registered and stayed off MN until the past week or so!

Still too paranoid to discuss openly on a public forum the deatails of things although could really do with an ear.

at your twisted enjoyment Bryter, we have to get our kicks wherever we can!

Jane - it really was a tiny thing in the end. After years of feeling inadequate, being criticised, having my confidence eroded, I finally booked a camping trip with friends during the ill-fated half term hols! H is very much a fair-weather camper so I know the rain didn't help his mood, but there were also some bright spells and our friends would just laugh and zip themselves in to play cards when the rain came, while H stared moodily out of the window moaning about how cold he was.

We went to the beach and all decided to play crazy golf. H didn't want to pay £3.50 to join in because "he doesn't like crazy golf" (of course he doesn't he's 44 FFS, but kids like playing with their parents!) so in the end I forced him to join in and he was miserable as sin - the photos I downloaded from my camera yesterday are a real eye-opener!

The following day we were all going swimming and after waiting for H to potter about sorting out a mobile internet connection at reception so he could check the weather, he finally came back and asked if I could take the DCs swimming without him. I said it was unreasonable to expect me to take 3 weak swimmers on my own and by the way, we've all been waiting an hour for you to get back.

He then flatly denied saying it and said he just needed a moment to get his stuff together.

At that moment any scrap of respect/love I had left just evaporated and I knew it was over. I looked him in the eye and said "Do not lie to me. That's a lie and you know it. You've said and done a lot of crappy things over the years, but I won't allow you to lie to my face" and when we got home a few more big rows ensued and I told him to leave. 2 weeks later he has.

I won't lie there have been moments of doubt, regret, lots of tears and grief that the man I thought I'd married no longer exists (did he ever?!) but I am so confident that I have made the best move for all concerned.

Same here Idreamof. Number of nights I cried myself to sleep and he was obviously awake but ignored it 'because he didn't know how to deal with it'. Errr.... say sorry for what you've done?! Don't say it in the first place?!

Been there on the crying softly at night too. He claims "he can't talk to me as this is what it will lead to"

was so blown away with identifying with the others that I forgot this is ABitWobbly's thread and not a general "what is it like" free for all, so I hope I will be forgiven if it seems I am hijacking somewhat.

DoingIt your story is amazing - I almost walked 2 years ago when after looking at hundreds of houses that weren't good enough for him, he said "I rather like renting" (we were in a mouldy damp ridden dump)I cracked and said I would leave if we didn't buy a house pronto - and actually we did!

This time he has accused me of something so heinous that there is simply no return. Since I reached my decision yesterday I've been feeling very Zen and calm. I hope standing up to him will cause him to leave smoothly for me too.

My X was good at spending money on toys and getting into a lot of debt doing it, combined with not really wanting to work. He couldn't drive a small, older car - it had to be a top of the range mercedes that he couldn't afford. When we needed a second car, he had temper tantrums until he was 'allowed' to get another mercedes we really couldn't afford and was not family friendly, but at least it wasn't the jag with no backseats he started off desiring. He needed a trip to the US for a self-indulgent, ego-stroking conference, and couldn't fly standard - it had to be business class. I was too frightened to complain, as he either threatened to leave me or top himself.

Anyway - how did I get him to leave. Amusing really. I did a lot of therapy and coda etc etc and started learning what boundaries were. He has a drink problem, combined with lots of staying out without telling me (when, where, with who, that he was even not planning on coming home). I 'accepted' the staying out (stupidly - but it was out of desperation because again he told me he would be suicidal if he didn't get enough 'decompression time') but I had told him if he drank again that was it. And he did. While looking after the children, while I was out doing some therapy. In the end I think he left to teach me a stern lesson in why I was not allowed to give him "ultimatums", and didn't bank on that I had started developing a backbone. When he left he drove off to an AA meeting (under some duress admittedly) and just didn't come home. He managed to talk the other people there into how awful a wife I was first. And now tells the children that he left because I shout a lot. No shit, I shouted because he was drunk in charge of two small children and lied lied lied to me about it, even when I pulled out the cans from his work bag (he didn't know how they got there . Not the best way to deal with a narcissist, but...

So I guess if I am honest, it was luck I got him out. I think I was so boundaryless and clueless and under the thumb, that anything else I would have put up with. It was only once he was gone that I could feel my whole spirit lifting and felt joy again.

Wow well done Daffy. Is Coda for the partners and carers of alcoholics? My P has also pulled the "decompression time" scam to spend inordinate amounts of time on his sports. He also drinks a lot, but at home and seems to be able to function well.

There definately seems to be a "straw that broke the camel's back" theme emerging.

Just thinking of my P leaving is causing me to inwardly smile atm.

Al anon - for families of alcoholics. Coda = codependents anonymous - for healthy relationships with yourself, others and life. So not exactly the same thing. Although some large overlap, they are both 12 step groups and the focus is on a happier you and realising you are powerless over something, in al anon you are powerless over alcohol (read: alcoholic), in coda you are powerless over others (you can read: alcoholic).

Codependency was first identified many decades ago in families of alcoholics, although it is now realised to be broader than that. It is a 'spectrum' where all people are codependent, it just depends where along the scale you are. And codependents are perfect partners for narcissists (also a spectrum where all people have some narcissistic tendencies from their upbringing, again it depends where along that scale you/they are). I think as someone (abitwobbly?) said in another thread today, narcissists make good addicts, as the bottle etc is the perfect relationship for them.

Daffy, your last sentence; how sobering, no pun intended.

Also thanks for your comments about children and your links earlier, I will look them up as soon as I have a 'feeling strong' day.

Bryter; your 'eternity' ring , absolutely priceless, couldn't make it up, could you.

Thanks Daffy - will look into CoDa groups in my area- never knew they existed

I was suggested them by my therapist, but basically it is a support group, and group therapy (minus feedback) so a safe place to vent and share, and meet people with similar experiences. There are loads in London/SE but they do exist outside that too. Perhaps not for everyone, but I have not regretted going, and it did make a difference for me.

Oh yes, we've always had the 'don't ask me to join in or be available for at least an hour when I get home as I need time to unwind despite having an hour's journey in the car to 'unwind' '

H has just popped back here to get some stuff to take to his house. Kissed me on the cheek on the way in the door! Cheeky fucker.

When DD had wandered off I said "I'm all for being amicable for the kids, but it seems a bit odd for you to kiss me when you get here, like its all lovely and normal. This is not lovely and normal, its not like when you worked away and came home. Its a totally different situation. When I asked for a hug the other day it was because I was at the lowest point of my life (and I said this having watched both my parents die) and I needed a hug, you were the only person there and had shown that you were sorry. I shouldn't have done that, because it seems to have sent you the message that we're all good friends now. We're not."

He was all "oh ok, that's fine, sorry" but obviously wanted me to stop talking after about the first sentence.

ALL hijacks welcome. It makes me feel less lonely.

Jane: be very smart. Play this carefully. Why did you never get married? Are you able to hang in there for another, say, year - quietly squirrelling away money?
You do this by going to Tescos and taking out £50 or so cashback, and then hiding that somewhere. If you are on an allowance, go really budget and do more vegetarian meals so he doesn't notice. Similarly, when you are ready to go, buy detergents cleaners etc because these are expensive and it is one less thing in your new home.

Is he financially controlling? What can you do to hoard dosh?

Do you have a job?

Tell us your story.

Little narc mini moment:

H - when is the football?
W - we are watching this
H - yes I just want to know when the football is.
W - [previously would have complied] wait until the ads, and then I will find out [ie, wait 5 minutes]
H - son, [stop your game and] check on the ipad and find out when the football is. [son complies]

This is the quietest, calmest, 'most polite' man. But I really see the selfishness now. He didn't like being made to wait!

You start to see it in everything when you're looking don't you Wobbly. Every word they speak shows their selfishness.

I dont know if I can articulate this in one post....there seems to be a pattern here doesnt there.

Dysfunctional childhood/family leaves girl feeling inadequate/grasping for love wherever- this carries through with parents/friends/work ....meets abusive man who gives the 'veneer' of being affectionate/loving/kind/thinking of her....usually until relationship well established or DC arrive.

He isolates her from sources of support i.e. friends, family, hobbies. Subtly and slowly he ramps up his level of selfishness, his level of contempt for her and starts abusing her verbally/emotionally/physically/ sexually/financially/psychologically. In his mind she 'deserves' this.
The 'veneer' falls away to reveal a person who is so totally unhappy in themselves that their only source of consolation is in making another person (her) twist themselves in knots trying to please him.

He has no insight and revels in blaming his unhappiness on her failure to satisfy him; she slowly edges towards insanity at the discord between reality and what he says.

At some point, she cracks, and says enough is enough. This 'cracking' point is different for each case. As she looks back, she cannot see the whole picture in one glance but the more she looks, the more she 'sees' how bad things had got.

Yes but beware projection, sometimes they are just being normal, if only to prove their point that we are the wackos.
Funny how they actually can do normal, when they get it that you are not buying their shit anymore. See wonderful Superdad thread from DoingIt...

I won't become superbitch from hell and give him the pleasure of feeling justified so bland courtesy is my default setting. Same behaviour, same smiles, as to a stranger.

Naughty and a bit sad, but I have discovered that a (rare) unexpected favour that doesn't tax my time or efforts messes up his mind real good, if only for a few seconds. It's lovely to see. Such a refreshing change, to be on the other side. (Better watch out this one, might be a slippery slope).

Previous post was to answer abitwobbly and doingIt ' latests.

Porridge, exactly right. And also the feeling bad for having allowed things to go this far.

Porridgelover - good insight. Quite scary really.

In my case, my dysfunctional upbringing seems to have been largely that it was so overprotective, feelings were not really discussed, and as a child mine certainly had less value, on top of moving around a lot, and being the eldest child so 'responsible'. Dad had a bit of a temper and mum a bit of a control freak. No extended family living nearby. Really nothing abusive, but moderately dysfunctional, even if they were very loving.

I read a book by John Bradshaw that suggests that all families are dysfunctional, in the sense that bad habits are learned through generations.

My family were lovely. My mum and dad were loving and caring, always busy working, but at the weekends would take us to the park or shopping and I remember plenty of nice days out and holidays.

I did have a 2 year relationship with an abusive guy at Uni, which showed me just how much I was willing to put up with but I don't think I ever put up with this behaviour from H for any reason other than the gradual creeping in of slightly harsher, slightly meaner comments, all denied or dismissed as jokes, so I wasn't aware how unacceptable it was until the end. Had there been no children involved I would have left him years ago too, but then they are apparently the cause of much of the stress in his life, so maybe he wouldn't have been like this without them?

It makes me so angry that he is being so lovely to them now, when only a couple of weeks ago he stood there telling me that being asked to get involved with family stuff, like taking them out somewhere, makes him feel 'angry' and he doesn't know why. He's said that he doesn't think he'll ever have a good relationship with DS1 who idolises him I feel like he's lying to them all and I know that he will never admit what he said to anyone else. Another one of his 'famous disappearing comments'!

My X was adoring towards me for the first number of years we were together, and the poor behaviour was there before but little and seldom in comparison to later on. Now after we decided to get pregnant, it escalated very quickly. I suppose in part because it made it that much more difficult for me to leave him, so he knew he could. Then when we moved abroad away from family, again it got a lot worse. What makes me so angry is the fact he took such advantage of me at the most vulnerable stage of my adult life. And that I 'let' him.

Also, if we had had no children I would have left years ago. And also, I think, he might not have been quite like this without kids - they apparently are the cause of lots of his stress too.... .

Whilst I don't disagree with anything said here - and a lot of it echoes my own situation, I am a bit concerned about the power naming someone 'a narcissist' gives them. It puts you in a passive role - the one who reacts, watches, identifies behaviour etc. - but it's still all about them, isn't it? Just exactly the way they like it.

I was stuck at this stage with my H for far too many years - trying to work out why he did what he did, trying to tie together the charming, kind man he appeared to be with his selfish, hurtful actions, losing confidence in myself with every single day, but luckily for me (and I do say luckily) I found out about his using prostitutes last year (after previous affairs, counselling, promising he'd changed - please fill in script here...).

Something switched off in me. I just don't care if he's a narcissist or a Martian or Justin Bieber fan, all I care about is that I would never want to share my life with a man like that - he doesn't even come close to my absolute minimum standards. He got away with it for years by lying to me and manipulating my goodwill and desire to keep the family together, but not any more.

I would no more knowingly chose a man like him as a husband than I would a 5-year-old boy.

I am with him until a certain point next year, when it makes total financial, career and in terms of the children's education, sense to leave. I am in absolutely no mental anguish (apart from the occasional sadness that I have to tell the kids), I don't waste any of my time trying to understand him. I don't care what H does or with whom. He is someone I currently share the house, a business and parenting the kids with. We get on fine - and for the kids sake I hope that continues. If any of that changes, I'll bring the divorce forward regardless of finances/children etc. My mental health (after 2 bouts of anti-depressants and far too many counselling sessions) is paramount.

At the moment, he could not be nicer to me and is constantly trying to get me to go out with him. I just ignore him or think of an excuse. The only sex he gets is from the women he pays (or some other poor sap he's charmed - at least this time the "my wife doesn't have sex with me" line is actually true .) I am happier than I've been for years, the weight of the world is truly off my shoulders.

Ladies - by all means, if this sort of thing helps you move through with your life, then please think of terms like narcissist and co-dependency etc. But don't waste years of your life on it (like I did). Put yourself first - you're allowed to do that. If you don't want a man who treats you like dirt, that's fine. There is no need for further analysis.

Wow -massive post sorry.

I think from my upbringing, I couldn't and still can't really conceive that people lie or try to hurt each other. That was not my experience from my birth family, who were very honest and loving (we had our petty arguments and issues like any family but they would never ever have let me down). Making me the perfect doormat....

triffin - quite right, it is easy to spend lots of time overanalysing.

However, I am just at the stage where I am finding analysing really empowering. By understanding and expressing my reality and feelings about the 'relationship' I had (for the first time!), it helps me understand and forgive myself. It allows me to put myself first and to start caring for myself again, and I think it will help reduce the chance that I will ever get into a relationship like that in the future. The alternative (for me) is remaining a victim, or getting into the habit of listening to what a terrible person I was (he sends me epic emails outlining my long list of faults) which is not MY reality.

By listening to other people's experiences and how they are similar to mine, I feel stronger, I am not a total misfit... this was not my fault. Other women who are intelligent and loving have been in a similar situation. And it feels like it is helping me to move on.

By labelling myself as codependent (I was labelled by a professional) it allows me to understand how to develop the tools I need to have a healthy, happy life. By labelling him as a narcissist, it allows me to realise that he will never ever change, and acts as a big red warning label to look after myself. I don't think those labels put me in a passive role, rather a very proactive and strong one. But that is my experience. But I do agree, spending years analysising would not be healthy, but it is good now during the 'separation of our lives' process.

Yes to triffid- I agree about getting hung up on labels. But I think they are useful as a way of identifying- as long as you move on from there. For example, I was ''diagnosed'' as co-dependent and it has been helpful to me as a way of bundling behaviours that aren't helpful and giving me the impetus to stop doing that.
So I have more or less got past the behaviour of STBXH (narcissist/abuser/whatever) - at the moment, dealing with how dysfunctional my birth family is, is helping me to get past their opinion of me.

I can honestly say that I never felt anyone was fond of me as a child. I accepted their labels (I was a child, I knew no better) so I believed I was difficult etc etc.
'Labelling' is helping me to see that its not me; that I'm ok actually.

And thats why I find these threads helpful....it confirms to me what I couldnt discuss with anyone in RL.