Living with a narcissist

[Abitwobblynow]

Is hard. Busy taking one day at a time whilst I work on myself and developing stability. He isn't horrible but he isn't available either.

Anyway, now that my eyes are opened, it is sad/interesting to see the mini-moments that announce his narcness, that I was so blind to before! If I see them, I can either set boundaries or self-soothe to stay calm.

Last weekend, he tells me he bought a Ferrari. *

So, phone rings (he is on a business trip). Telling me about his evening out with adoring female acolytes (he likes them best). I started telling him about two of our friends, who are having issues.

Silence, and then: well then. I must go.

I have come on so much. I used to be destroyed, now I feel vaguely sorry for him. It must be awful to be that empty.

*Don't worry. Whilst I did not cause him, cannot cure him and certainly can't control him, it went down on the list with all the other toys for misappropriation of marital assets when the time comes.

Mine are all fine thanks Wobbly. I actually felt a bit sad for H when he said goodbye this morning and told them he was going to his new house tonight but would see them when he popped back for some of his stuff tomorrow eve. I think it was quite a significant moment for H, leaving the house he's called home for the last 5 years and leaving his family for good.

None of them batted an eyelid and just waved him off as usual, because they're so used to him not being around, its nothing new for them. I know it helps that he's only a mile or so away, but they're all excited about being able to visit him and spend an evening with him next week - what does that say about his participation in their lives so far?!

H phoned this evening to say goodnight to them all and I thought I heard his voice cracking a bit, but it was difficult to tell as the line was really bad. The DCs were all fine with it though and just carried on watching TV afterwards.

DD who's 5, is being very loving and cuddly but has been a bit of a stroppy madam this week, which I put down to this situation, and DS2 is quite quiet, but keeps saying "I'm just not the sort of person who gets upset about stuff like this. It won't really make much difference because we don't spend much time with him anyway."

DS1 is taking it the hardest as at 12 he's the most aware of the implications, but he has also borne the brunt of H's perfectionist tendancies, so has the most to gain from being 'set free'.

One of the worst examples of H's stupid high standards - he would moan at DS for not washing his hair properly in the shower, so the next time DS stayed in there longer and H complained that he was running the water for too long, then he would complain that DS left his wet flannel in the shower. So one day DS washed his hair really well, didn't stay in too long, remembered to take his flannel out - any brownie points for doing it all right? No, H told him off for not shaking his feet off because the bath mat was wet when H used it afterwards.

The bath mat FFS, the mat you use to wipe your wet feet on, was wet. I nearly cried at that. The poor boy could do nothing right and he so loves his dad, wants nothing more than to please him, but gets nothing but indifference and criticism from him. When I remember how powerless I felt that day, to protect my little boy from feeling like I do, I know I've done the right thing.

May I also join in?

I am in awe of how far you girls have gone.

Not very long ago, the very idea of accepting and loving myself sounded just plain silly; now I can see it is the only sane way. The only way out of co-dependency with a narcicist.
Detachment, validating my own opinions and feelings to myself, don't come naturally, it's all a bit me me me.

And there lies some of the problem I think, allowing everything to be about him, even going down that path kicking and screaming, can be a convenient way to not sort yourself out. This is what I feel guilty of.

When I look at it, 4 years of bliss (if you overlook the small prints) don't justify the following 11 years of misery: as he would say; what are you on?
I was on self delusional love, hope, self blaming, not wanting to break up the family and, finally, fear of failure.
But it was all there for me to see, from the start, in the small prints.

You live and learn. A lot from posters like Abitwobbly and Doingit, Daffy and all. Thank you.

It is hard Idreamof. Even tonight - our first night without H living here, I was looking around at things to tidy before he got home - he's not coming home, it doesn't matter!

We had tea in the sitting room watching TV and I was still conscious of the crumbs on the floor, but I went with it and relaxed and thought "that's why they invented hoovers".

It will take time to relax enough to not think 'via' him the whole time. The front door lock jammed again and I thought "oh no, he will be really smug that I didn't actually manage to fix it after all" but no, I got out my screwdriver and fiddled a bit and it works again.

I will find my own place in the world, as a competent independent adult, but it will take a little work I know.

I saw a speed camera the other day and my first thought was not of the fine, or the points on my license, it was H saying "Well how the hell didn't you slow down in time?! I've never had a speeding ticket in all my years of driving cars and motorbikes. You do realise your insurance premiums will go up now etc"

His wrath was a worse punishment than the Police to me FFS!

DoingIt
(I know its not funny really but I recognise the foot hovering over the brake... the telling off from Ex was infinitely worse than police/fine. Even library charges-wow unforgivable).

I never pranged my car til I was married and then seemed to be constantly doing it (I put it down to stress). I dont do that any more!

It takes a while to find your feet again as an adult- it took me a year after ex left to 'remember' that I had traveled around the world alone. I had actually forgotten that I was capable.

As Idreamof says I found the only thing that worked was giving myself lots of praise and lots of room to make mistakes. As a child, a mistake was a terrible thing, drawing opprobrium from one or both parents. A pattern very happily continued by Ex.

When I started, it felt so odd , very awkward. I started writing a diary last thing at night, that recorded only good things from that day. Compliments, small achievements, things I had done with the kids. Now I am stronger, I don't need it as much and it's internalised...though I still do it occasionally.

Dream are you with him or not?

Living w a narcissist is well nigh impossible. It is normal and human to want to connect w someone.

Uh-oh. Not sure why I clicked on this thread really. I don't know what a narcissist is. I haven't understood all of it but it is sounding too much like the man I live with. The man about whom ds1 said today 'we need a new daddy, this one shouts too much'

Main things:
Cleverer than everyone in the world
The only person in the would who can drive properly (lots of beeping/flashing/fist shaking at other drivers)
Always sighing heavily or huffing and puffing about other peoples ignorance/something I have said/dec behavior/mess in the house.

No interest in what I say. Ever.

Is he a narcissist?

Off to google the term now.

Is it worth discussing, counseling or marriage guidance or is it a leopard and spots thing?

Well done to those of you who have had the guts to leave shitty relationships!

Would be grateful for any links if anyone had a sec.

outofthefog.net/Disorders/NPD.html here is a link from a good website for a run down of Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD)

narcissism can also be part of the "feel" of a man who is abusive and controlling but may not have classical NPD

Personality disorders are particularly difficult to treat, abusive people don't often want to be treated...not very encouraging.
sorry

you might want to take a look at the links at the start of this thread too www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1488894-Support-thread-for-those-in-Emotionally-Abusive-relationships-Number-9

Aw Crazy, your poor DS! Sounds like you're one of us I'm afraid .

Mine was more of a silent seether than a shouter, but the end result is the same - you question every move you make because you know that you will always be wrong.

I think it was AnyFucker who told me to buy a cushion and embroider the words "A leopard never changes his spots" on it, just in case I was tempted to give things another go with STBXH. After 13 years of warnings that this would be the end result if he didn't change his ways, guess what, he didn't change his ways (until last week when he became superdad !).

If you've given ultimatums and warned him that this is unacceptable and its still happening I honestly don't think he will change, but feel free to let him try if you think he's worth it.

Joint counselling is almost never a good idea though individual counselling for you probably is as you sort out your own perceptions and reality from what they are telling you is going on

I have just read as much as I can take of Melanie's material. I have never read anything like it, anything that sums up exactly how a narcissist functions - and how desperately damaging it is to be exposed to a narcissist's abuse.

I left my narc husband nearly 20 years ago and he is now dead. I have supported women who are in relationships with narcs ie encouraged them to leave and heal. In all that time I have not read anything like Melanie's material, which describes exactly what I, and many others, have experienced.

I'm blown away by that stuff. I have never been able to fully put it into words because it was all so terrifying and fucked up my head just to even think about what he did. it was hard to read though, even though it validates what is was like.

Doingit; - and, it doesn't matter that he's not coming home!
Have to say it sounds horrendous to be constantly monitored and evaluated like you were!

My prob. is exactly the opposite, nothing, but nothing matters, nothing can touch him, or distract him from his current obsession/delusion (they change regularly), he's taken everything and more, from his family, to keep them (the obsessions) going.

But always hyper critical of DS, (for trivial things, not interested about schooling, health, security, etc.), who would walk over broken glass for his dF.
How dare you criticize a child when you yourself have no self control, limits or boundaries?
No other way of talking to DCs but barking mode. It is not right is it?

On the other hand, I am asked 'what I want' to do about everything of no consequence, not out of respect, but because he can't be bothered to give it a though.

The f come in many shapes, it seems.

Abitwobbly, was it a bit like this for you? I have read many of your very interesting posts, but can't find your thread.

Springy its a real eye opener isn't it!

My trouble is when I read parts that don't apply, I start to think "well he doesn't tick ALL the boxes, so that can't be him" but actually to tick any of them you have to be a certain kind of arsehole. As Idream says, they come in many shapes, none of them very nice though.

Mine ticked every possible box! and how

I tend to think that it was bad enough when it happened, I got away (which is a must ) - I'd rather not go over it. I've had a lot of therapy but to this day I haven't been able to tell a therapist exactly what happened. Bits, here and there, but nothing like the full picture. I've not been able to tell myself tbh.

Is that 'bad'? Is it all buried under there somewhere and, somewhere along the line, I've got to get it out? For a start, barely any therapists knew what narcissism was, let alone what to do about it. In fact, for 'barely' read 'none'. That was back in the day and it's now common parlance (I found out about narcissism from an obscure website after years of searching for something that addressed the symptoms/profile). I couldn't tell a therapist because if I tried they didn't know what I was talking about and it was unbearable to not be believed and/or misunderstood.

sorry for hijack.

btw joint counselling for us was terrifying. hang on, let's call this what it was: he was terrifying, full stop.

On no account go into counselling with a narc. (I don't know how to stress that more forcefully)

God how awful Springy. I find the only thing that helps me come to terms with it is to post here and have other women say "that is emotional abuse. that is unacceptable. you are doing the right thing"

When you spend years feeling that you're invisible and that your opinions are wrong or not worth listening to, finally having them validated is like oxygen.

I can finally say "its not me being over sensitive, its not me having a sense of humour failure. Its him being a controlling joy-sucking thoughtless bastard"

Maybe you should try therapy again now that it is a commonly discussed set of behaviours. Or at least share on here in the comfort of anonymity so that you can accept people's kind words to you.

My DS is asking why I spend so much time on MN at the moment and I said that I'm sharing my experiences in the hope that i can help someone else the way that others have helped me to deal with our situation. That a stranger will take time out of their life to share their feelings and thoughts with you, in the hope that they can help you to be happier restores my faith in the goodness of people in general.

Yes Abitwobbly, still with him.
(Sorry, takes me so long to put my thoughs accross reasonably clearly and post, thread has moved on, also, saddly, have turned to the bottle, for the moment, in the evenings, 1st time in my life, so numbling, but also makes me a lousy writer)
Have very recently realised it is all mission impossible though. ( with H)
Like you, one day at a time to develop stability within myself and get a grip.

Some form of guilt from him also, so if I manage to play it right, DCs and I might not be saddled with HIS debts. Maybe. We are talking about someone who used to be wraather (I do love Eloise) well off.

The Ferrari and girls thing makes me think your H still needs you very much as an audience.

Springy, I went to a therapist for a while, just a few years ago, and found I had to stop myself from spilling it all out to spare the poor woman -she was lovely, but clearly couldn't take on anymore, let alone the whole picture.
A moment of great loneliness! So sad it's funny.

Perhaps several therapists, or/and writing it down when it comes back to the surface (I have a special little notebook I call my venom-spitting book, hope no one ever reads it), and MN. It does have to come out, I think.
What banging your head against a brick wall it must have been for you, all those years ago when this type of abuse was unrecognised or put down as the woman being deranged., unreasonably demanding.
Hats off to you for going through it.

Totally with Doingitformyself; Mn is a bowl of oxygen, allowing you to finally get it and see you are not all sad and bad: seemingly reasonable people go through similar stuff. And in time, get to the other, saner, side.

Springy: I went to joint counselling. After the therapist said to H 'you do realise that infidelity is the worst violation a marriage can suffer' and H shrunk into the sofa going yes, yes, then we rapidly got into our own dynamic. Him twisting things and me getting angry and emotional, then being blamed for being crazy.

So afterwards I said to counsellor 'you didn't support me why didn't you challenge him?

He said: it is pointless (to challenge a narcissist). His defenses are just too huge. You two aren't even in the same book, let alone on the same page.

Later he said to me 'stop putting your hand in the mincer'. ie stop trying to connect! But it is hard, it is human. We had a futile moment this evening where me and several of the DCs agreed about s/thing, he was the one on the outside ['no it isn't'] his favourite refrain. How can he not see that 'we' acknowledged a truth, and he just fights the truth? As Daffs says, it is hard hard hard to get your head round narcissism.

I love my counsellor. He says don't leave your marriage until you have got a life. He shouldn't say these things, but he knows I can take them.

Bottom line, MN I am so sad. I am sad that I do not have the marriage I thought I did. I am sad I don't have the love I hoped for. I am sad he cannot be human. I have wasted my life emotionally, and I didn't mean to, and I am sorry for his damage. But as Yet his damage still hurts me. I struggle to stay detached.

Dream: here is the list of his distractions: [sorry, to identifying but believe me it is a lot].

Jees, when are you going to get that it WON'T fill the hole no matter how you try.

That, and being told I am crazy and too emotional! And faulty and evil and bad.

PS the counsellor does kick my ass, telling me I was over emotional and verbally abusive (when I responded). I appreciate that feedback, I really want to grow as a human being and put the ingrained pain of my past behind. Separately, I want to be better. So I have stopped the futile screaming and shouting. What I need to do is STOP trying to connect with him. That is so hard. So hard.

He feels sorry for himself because I just give him a hard time about his little mistake, and why don't I just calm down, stop punishing him and carry on like before.

You have not wasted your life emotionally, you have your DCs, they have you.
Sadness I understand, and you have my sympathy, but you are not to be sorry for his damage. He should be, and might yet be one day, but it might not make a difference.
We struggle with the choices we made, one crucial one, giving our DCs a decent father. As my GP said; hang on, you didn't ask for all this, he chose on his own to fuck it all up.
Little comfort when you consider the original possibilities and the results, but truth all the same.
It is sad, but isn't feeling sad about it a step towards detachment? It must be.

bitwobblynow, sorry, I don't get the start of your last post, should there be a link? (pardon thickness please)
But, I could have written your last 5 sentences. Keep strong. We'll get there.

abitwobbly....are you ok? Your last 2 posts sound like you are being so hard on yourself.
You are in no way responsible for your 'D'H's issues. You are allowed to be angry, and irrational and bit wooh...because what you are trying to manage is unmanageable.
Do Not Take His View Of You As Having Any TRUTH!

Stop trying to grow as a person, this is not the time. Our brains work like a binary switch- either in protection mode or growth mode.
You sound as if you are (or should be) in protection mode now. Get through that and then you will have lots of experience to use as fertiliser for immense personal growth.

Abitwobbly - how are my children doing now?

He left in March, so the children and I are still going through a process I guess. We are living in the family home (rented) until term ends, as I felt it was less disruptive for my eldest (obvs school age). He refuses to set up regular phone calls (prefers ad hoc, which I am trying to avoid as it does my head in), he easily goes 3-4 plus weeks without seeing them, although I think this stint will be nearly 2 months worth by time it ends. When they ask him why he doesn't move back home, he tells them it is my fault, rather than try to explain to the children that he loves them and that the relationship didn't work out etc. Apparently when I try to out down any sort of boundaries, I am trying to manipulate and dictate.

Rambling now... if he could be an adult not a third child, and treat his children with respect, they would be doing fine. As it is with the mind games and inconsistency they really get upset that he is not here. It is impossible to understand for them because he doesn't arrange to chat to them on say mon, wed and sat at 1800 like clockwork (kids like routine). When he talks it is on skype and he is upset if it lasts less than 1 hour (they are 3 and 5). He takes his anger out on the kids, I feel (from his behaviour so far) that he uses them like pawns in his control games with me. And that makes my heart bleed for them.

But other than a sudden verbal obsession from the kids, "daddy's this that and the other, my daddy...." they are so much calmer and happier. They are easier to handle. They have a better routine. The youngest is very frightened of losing sight of me. But that is to be expected. But I can leave him with other adults no problem. My eldest started acting babylike at school, but I spoke to her teacher and they are doing some form of art therapy with her and she is back to normal I think now.

But we are about to move area, school and it will be a big change for them. But it is nearer my family, so huge benefits and positive distraction, so I am not too worried. I think what worries me more is that their father will lose interest in them.

Working my way slowly through the other posts....

"Do Not Take His View Of You As Having Any TRUTH!" - agreed! He is not a psychiatrist and his word is not truth. My X consistently tells me I have severe and serious mental health issues. Because of our relationship breakdown and my severe inability to deal with that, I was seeing a psychiatrist (private) and therapist. They both told me I was totally and utterly normal (albeit codependent and with some situational depression) and that he was probably projecting his own issues on to me.

So his idea of truth that I am completely unstable, that my family caused my health issues... are totally wrong, and I know that deep in that gut feeling of mine. I am emotionally stable and my family is loving (albeit slightly dysfunctional, but who's isn't?!). And to be honest, how can someone like him (not a head shrink or doctor) even know my truth?? I don't even think he believes it, since he left me with the children on my own! It is just about controlling and being better.