Living with a narcissist

[Abitwobblynow]

Is hard. Busy taking one day at a time whilst I work on myself and developing stability. He isn't horrible but he isn't available either.

Anyway, now that my eyes are opened, it is sad/interesting to see the mini-moments that announce his narcness, that I was so blind to before! If I see them, I can either set boundaries or self-soothe to stay calm.

Last weekend, he tells me he bought a Ferrari. *

So, phone rings (he is on a business trip). Telling me about his evening out with adoring female acolytes (he likes them best). I started telling him about two of our friends, who are having issues.

Silence, and then: well then. I must go.

I have come on so much. I used to be destroyed, now I feel vaguely sorry for him. It must be awful to be that empty.

*Don't worry. Whilst I did not cause him, cannot cure him and certainly can't control him, it went down on the list with all the other toys for misappropriation of marital assets when the time comes.

Please ignore me if this feels inappropriate ...
I have found, like most others working through childhood issues in therapy, that "They did the best they could" is comforting and painful at the same time. There must be some people who have children with the express purpose of abusing them, but I think they are rare. Most parents love and want the best for their children. Some parents are too limited in their capacities, and/or too damaged, to fulfil their parental duties as well as their children would have liked.

Many of you have posted that your DC understand their fathers' limitations (as far as possible at their age). Clearly they need to believe he loves them - but, imo, it's important for their future development that they understand a love limited by personal issues is not the best they should have had. Clearly, also, they'll hope for a change in him that may bring the unconditionally supportive love they instinctively crave. This change is unlikely to occur.

We've all known people who were driven, almost irrationally, by a frantic desire to gain a parent's approval for once. It's my belief that it's better to mitigate this early, by maintaining the true picture of a father who, while loving them as well as he can, is unfortunately incapable of total support.

My paternal grandmother loved me unconditionally, bless her, and was the only person to tell me clearly, in childhood, that the way her son treated me was wrong. A few therapists have suggested she 'saved' me from developing a PD myself. She was a very flawed human being, but gave me two things every child needs: approval and confirmation that I should not be harmed. I think one or two people on this thread - not all, by any means - have children with men as crazy as my dad; I'd like to think you're better informed than the adults who influenced my childhood, and can grant your DC some defences against future damages & disillusionments.

You must mean my crazy ex then! I have been honest when ds says 'df should be in prison as he beat me' I say ' no he is not in prison, but he will never hit you again' that I will ensure! It shows to ds, he is right and i believe 110% even though 'professionals' thought different. It shows ds is safe now and can nurture safely again. The PD side of it is so important and scary GB that is why I bang on about it in other threads a lot!

Hear, hear, GB. It just takes one person to confirm to a child that what they experience is unfair, for that 'split' (what I feel is wrong and they are right, so therefore the fault must be with me and I must numb/deny/whatever a huge part of myself in order to twist into this situation) not to happen.

Unfortunately for me there was no such adult. Narcissism is very hard to spot and my parents seemed absolutely benign; so I had no way of knowing I deserved more support that I got.

slight hijack here... but I spelled out as best, and carefully, as I could that their father had problems being fully engaged. I hadn't got to the point of telling them that things would never change on that front, that he would always be like that. He was just getting to the stage where he was trying to 'imprison' my eldest dd because she was coming up to 18 and was asking difficult questions (his solution to this was to try to get her in to boarding school - to get her away from me, as he reasoned it was me who was influencing her (though I wasn't, certainly not directly, anyway)). the proof would have been in the pudding as the years went by and the children saw for themselves that they would be banging their heads against a brick wall to get the 'good stuff' from him.

then he was killed and, as so often happens when someone dies, he has become transfigured into a saint in their imaginations: the perfect dad. they can keep this fantasy alive because there is no reality to impinge on it.

of course, I dreaded my kids finding out the horrible truth about their dad, the slow torture of it. So in one way they have been spared that. In an about face, it is now me who is deemed evil, not him: in their imaginations he stays on his holy hill being perfect.

In one way I can't lie that I am overjoyed (if that is the right word) that he can never have access to me or the kids again, at least not directly, because he is gone. In another way it is as though he is still influencing things from beyond the grave. I suspect he was priming the kids about me in the years before he died - but I can't really go down that road because there is no way of getting any evidence and it would anyway drive me round the twist.

My DC are all very young, and ask about some of STBX's behaviour, both towards me and towards them. They've witnessed his rages, they've been upset when they hear him lying to me about them, so his behaviour is no secret to them.

I've agonised about what to say to therm, and done a lot of reading. For me, the best solution has been to answer their questions factually, without editorialising, and to validate their feelings. e.g. "We don't live together because I didn't like being shouted at or called names.", "No it's not nice to lie, and I can see why you're upset that he did that."

We also speak a lot about how to treat people with kindness and respect, about what behaviour they find unacceptable from anyone, (friends, characters in books etc.) so that they can be aware of their own boundaries. And how you don't have to accept bad behaviour.

Close friends know exactly why I left him. With others, I say that he could be quite cruel to me. People who recognise this know what I mean, and other people who have no experience can gloss over it.

How did you get rid of him, Year? Has it been hard?

Theregoes, that's true, people who have never experienced it will never really 'get it' even if you give them examples. The constant 'little things' that build up won't make sense to anyone else and will never give a true picture of the relationship, same is true of the DCs - they won't necessarily understand why the little things that upset you are so major, even though they witness it on a daily basis, but they can understand why certain behaviour in general is unacceptable, so keeping it factual and calm helps.

My SIL said yesterday "we all knew what he was like, that he wasn't really interested in spending time with the DCs, even when they were little he never played with them" which made me feel so validated and relieved. She had seen his behaviour and it wasn't just me being unreasonable.

ABit we're separated but since we have children I guess I'll never really be rid of him. I feel so sad for my children; I chose the worst possible father for them.

After months of talking about it on mn I left suddenly when he crossed a line, I got an interim court order to keep him away for long enough to get practicalities arranged, and moved a looooooong way away. He found me, of course, but I got a few weeks of peace. And when he did, I tried to avoid contact as much as possible. He only got to rant at me in writing (useful) or in front of the children (the latter is difficult for them to witness, but certainly makes things clearer for them). I think he just likes the fight so I kept a policy of not responding to him (except via lawyers/police when absolutely necessary.)

My therapist (who specialises in PDs) promised me that if he wasn't getting his 'supply' from me he'd find someone else. He started a new relationship within a few weeks/months. It has made all the difference and I get a lot more peace now. (Poor woman, but for now she seems to believe that I'm the psycho ex)

It's still tough. At times I feel very sorry for myself and wonder if I should have stayed, and maybe tried to protect my children from within the home/relationship. But then I read something on the relationships board, about some lovely woman in living with a narc/abuser and I get knots in my stomach remembering the terror and confusion. Things will never be that bad again, and I am so glad I left.

Morning all. Just read over the thread as I havent been on for a while.
Abitwobbly- thanks- you have gathered a group of people who seem to have a lot of similiar issues to me.
I came back in where you were comparing checklists of 'labelled superior goods' and that started me laughing. Fancy watch (discreet though- you'd have to know what you were looking at ), high spec car, best possible laptop, first to have i-phone/pad, shoes, fine wines etc etc

He is a total empty space. I try so hard not to be his supply, but every time I cut off a power 'pipe' from me to him, he seems to tap another source.
In my real life, I feel that I am actually fighting a daily war with all the uncertainty, fear, damage, acts of bravery and selflessness that implies.

UnlikelyAmazonian - this was a useful link, thanks.

So advice please. Re children- how do I maintain their esteem for themselves (which I think is a reflection of what they see in their parents) while explaining his unreasonable behaviour?
He has them every second weekend (his choice). Last weekend, he rang early in the morning to say he was on his way for them- but I put him off as we were lolling in bed reading and said I would ring him once they were ready. An hour later he was at the door as they were dressing. I told him this. So he drove away. Cue- upset kids- is he going? is he coming back?
He proceeded to ring the house several times, abusing me.
As I helped them dress, I said that Daddy was being rude.
But it didnt feel right. Like they feel they have to defend him?

He arrived back maybe 15 minutes later, refused to look at me. I spoke to him, he wouldn't answer or turn to me. I asked him if he had heard my request- he answered that he is not deaf.

As someone else said, I feel he is playing the long game and that he is looking for the kids to choose to spend their time with him when they are teenagers. But they will then become his supply. He has occasionally tried it on with them already.

Daddy was being rude. It's bad manners to turn up early for an appointment. It's selfish to go away without saying how long you'll be. It's abusive to ring people up and bully them.

He was inconsiderate because he knew the kids were nearly ready, but drove away without saying when he'd be back. He may have done this to make them feel nervous.

Children can understand all the above, it's no different from playground rules.

Thanks garlic. I know its rude. I wouldnt do it. I speak strongly to my kids when they are rude.
But if they feel they have to defend Daddy to me (he always has an excuse) then am I driving them towards his manipulation? IYKWIM?

sorry to hijack wobbly.

Hmmm! Assertively, you wouldn't accept excuses for rudeness. You'd want a straight apology and, ideally, a statement of the acceptable behaviour. As your ex is using the children to 'excuse' by proxy, I'd be inclined to treat it in the same way.

Daddy came early because he's excited to see us!
Daddy knew you'd be ready in a few minutes, he should have waited. It's rude to arrive too soon.
Daddy drove off to buy us some presents!
He should have said when he'd be back. It's rude to just disappear. He should have bought your presents before he got here, then he wouldn't have been too early.
Daddy was nasty to you because you annoyed him.
Being annoyed is no excuse for bullying. He should have calmly said what was bothering him.

I know it's exhausting ... but, hopefully, worth as much common sense as you can muster, to help them build defences against this sort of head-fucking behaviour in future :(

Thanks again garlic
He is a master manipulator, gaslighter and mindf**ker. So I worry about their mental health. Everything he says sounds so reasonable....
'I am anxious to have them for the weekend; it was unfair that you didnt have them ready' .
That sounds reasonable until I look back and see that there are many mornings that he doesnt arrive til it suits him, many access days that he has changed cos ''something has come up''.
I suppose, as you advise, all I can do is keep being a model of reasonableness, manners and kindness. (not a saint,me, I can assure you). They can decide themselves later on.

It makes me so angry that children are exposed to this - and all you can do is continuously keep your own head straight for them, in the face of extreme provocation!

Don't know if this is any help, but I used to think "Unstoppable force" (him) - "Immovable object" (me)! Didn't always work, mind you.

You make a crucial point there, Porridge, about keeping instances in perspective. The wider context is everything: bullies love to work the 'devil in the detail' (you see it in threads on mumsnet, even!) as a derailing tactic. Being able to identify this, and persist with the context, is a very important critical thinking skill. Well worth teaching the DC imo.

Also, I'm sure you're already a master of the repetitively boring, factually correct, stock phrase. "You are bullying me, I will not speak to you." "You agreed to pick them up at 10." "It's rude to disappear." It's so easy to get drawn into trying to reason (which will work about as well as reasoning with an irate two-year-old) and/or playing at Excuses And Justifications - which, as we know, sets a poor model for the DC as well as making your head explode.

I've been following the disastrous tale of Peter Barlow, Leanne and Carla on Coronation Street It's giving me good practice in identifying and blocking Narc tactics!
Heh, if there were red flag posters up in Weatherfield and Wolford, there'd be no plots for the soaps.

what's going on?? I seem to be surrounded by narcs!

family, ex, offspring - and it seems that almost everyone I meet these days turns out to be a narc. Am I getting this right?

I'm hosting some foreign students for the summer and I've got one who talks endlessly, sneers at and is very dismissive of her mother - and women in general from what I can gather - and is very, very close to her dad (it was the first thing she told me) who sounds like a narc extraordinaire. She talks non-stop about herself, fobs me off/squirms if I correct her english (that's my job!) and sneered at me last night because I'm struggling with an essay for my degree - she compared it to her piddly little language school essay and gloated that she could do her essay in half an hour. she actually smirked to herself that I was getting hot and bothered over my degree essay. I swear I didn't imagine it or misinterpret her reaction. She came into my office before she went to bed (never done that before), pointedly confirmed she had finished her essay and - I kid you not - seemed to enjoy me struggling with mine at midnight and due to go on until the early hours . this morning at breakfast she asked first thing if I'd finished my essay (I hadn't) and she enjoyed it ffs, couldn't hide the secret smile.

what's going on? is everyone a farking narcs or am I narc crazy and see them under the bed and in the wardrobe? and, if I have actually become a narc magnet, what am I doing to be attracting narcs left and right??

she is french btw and ime the french students can be a bit erm arrogant but she's on a whole other scale

Springy that is true I am afraid - this I have discovered very painfully comes from a place much deeper than our marriage.

I have discovered that both my parents were narcissists, and that I am attracted to them.
Even now, although I have quietly dumped a whole load of them - I will find that the people I meet and am drawn to will have the same woundedness that I identify with.

So I have to keep on working on my boundaries and developing my void self as a human being.

boundaries shmoundaries - I'm sick of them! sulking now.

yy I've dumped a whole lot of narcs - to the point that the wind whistles through my life, somewhat - but I didn't pick this language student, did I? How come she's not only in my life but my home

Sorry Springy - I didn't listen to you.

Is there any way you can swop Madam for someone else?

She will make you very unhappy. I sacked an au pair after 10 days over this very thing.

Contact the course organiser and tell you that you and this one will not get on, that she needs to be with a very strong personality who will keep her in her place.

Can you do this, Springy?

nah, the language schools couldn't give a toss tbf. You have to put up or shut up and I was relying on the money.

though she'll find a very different host when she gets home tonight...

apologies for whining - still tired from my late-night (fruitless) essay stint. the world can get a bit cumbersome when you're tired.

I'm reminded of that story of an old donkey who got stuck down a disused well and it cost too much for the farmer to get it out, so the farmer made the decision to bury it in the well. Throwing rubbish/soil down the well, the donkey complaining furiously just stood on it until it got to the top and could walk out. that's the thing to do with the shit that gets thrown at you.

I had an au pair who tried to shut me in the fridge (!) (I was in her way and she pushed past me shutting the door on me) and then pretended to strangle me when I opened the oven door to cook some croissants for brekky while she was baking some cakes!

Needless to say we let her go after that even though H thought I was over-reacting

I should add that the donkey shook the rubbish off to step on it.

crap story-teller.

she's with me until saturday so I can make her life hell have plenty of time to redraw the boundaries.

mwahahaha

Springy, I think what's changed is that you're now identifying it.

Years ago, would she have succeeded in making you feel somehow lacking, and would you have craved her approval?