Living with a narcissist

[Abitwobblynow]

Is hard. Busy taking one day at a time whilst I work on myself and developing stability. He isn't horrible but he isn't available either.

Anyway, now that my eyes are opened, it is sad/interesting to see the mini-moments that announce his narcness, that I was so blind to before! If I see them, I can either set boundaries or self-soothe to stay calm.

Last weekend, he tells me he bought a Ferrari. *

So, phone rings (he is on a business trip). Telling me about his evening out with adoring female acolytes (he likes them best). I started telling him about two of our friends, who are having issues.

Silence, and then: well then. I must go.

I have come on so much. I used to be destroyed, now I feel vaguely sorry for him. It must be awful to be that empty.

*Don't worry. Whilst I did not cause him, cannot cure him and certainly can't control him, it went down on the list with all the other toys for misappropriation of marital assets when the time comes.

You make me laugh Amazonian!

I just read a great quote I saved in my 'list of relevant things to stop me questioning my decision to leave him'. You may have read it on one of the links provided but it makes me smile.

"Here?s where some of us trip up. We love giving love, and love it when it?s well-received. Here?s the fact of it: It ain?t love they want. Love is deep. Narcissists have the depth of a sidewalk mud puddle. They only want love to the extent that it looks like worship. They like, ?Oh, I just loved the way you parked the car. How do you do that, always so straight and just the right distance from the house (moonstruck looks, starry eyes)?? They hate, ?I love you, and I was wondering if you thought about the future.? Even if that?s presented after 12 years together, you?re on a romantic boat trip and you?re pregnant, it will be processed thusly:

?RED ALERT! RED ALERT! Assault! Attack! You want to rip away my freedom, eh? Tell me what to do, eh? You think I can just be your puppet? You think YOU should be the one to make these decisions? Well,

I?LL GET YOU FOR THAT!?

Oh yes. I well recall his descriptions of his first wife who ran for the hills. If it wasn't such an invasive thing to do if track her down for a chat. The more I think about it the more I think we'd get on - we arnt so different as far as I can make out.

Ha ha to a deep play. He will still be complaining about a play I took him to that he rubbished because he didn't understand it. I took
Him because he wanted to get into theatre -you're not open minded enough you twit!

He will be after a fawning fan I reckon who is so impressed by his big muscles and wads of cash they don't see the red flag that he's 4 months into a separation and under a behaviour contract for violence and threatening behaviour. What a catch! He will just use dd to make himself look great - and it will work because the child I'm bringing up is great get me I'm just a doting single dad but the bitch stops me from seeing dd blub blub. Of course he had a lucky escape from the mad wife. Oh not forgetting I must be depressed etc etc - that gets him off the hook.
Good luck whoever you are; his aesthetic and material assets are all he has going for him - underneath he is a nasty piece of work, spoilt, narcissistic, selfish, self serving with an anger management problem even his lawyer is concerned about. He can't be happy despite living a charmed life - he only wants to degrade and control women

Sorry to hijack... We had a row last night, I overheard him talking to his sister and somehow removing any blame from himself, I totally lost my temper and started shouting and screaming he just couldn't understand the reason I was angry is we agreed to present a united front for the sake of the children and say that we just decided to go our separate ways. I have not said anything negative to anyone about him. So last night I really lost it, not proud at all. This morning I approached our nanny and said I am really sorry about yesterday, I can promise you it will not happen Again. I looked to him for confirmation and he said 'I'm not gonna lie, I haven't done anything'

attilla! You can't really present a united front with someone like him can you.

I've gone the other way and told anyone who wants to listen what I've endured (including to a certain extent the DCs because they have seen his coldness towards me & them, so I don't want them to think its anything as minor as "we just don't get on")

I want them to know that I tried really hard to make him happy but he just doesn't feel happy about the same things as many other people and he needs space to feel happy, but he is now spending lots of time with them and enjoying it because he isn't so stressed.

Could you come up with a 'sanitised' version to tell people so that you don't feel like you're living a lie, while he swans around pretending to be totally blameless.

DIFM - I did that (didn't keep quiet about it) and it came back to bite me on the arse big time. think BIG time. I regret it now and wish I'd kept my mouth shut.

I didn't labour it with the kids at all - though they say I did b there iuts no way I did (talk about sanitised!!) - but I did announce some themes (dad has a problem with control: he needs to control me) and I certainly didn't keep particularly quiet with other people. I wish I had said nothing, or kept it to a safe place ie only to a few choice friends or within domestic abuse support groups. You can't underestimate their charm; and the way they load the gun and we lose the plot and fire it, so that all eyes are on us. (I think of Hitler on this: there is no documented evidence anywhere that he was responsible for what happened during the war - all evidence points squarely at other people.) The result is that everyone believes them and, I'm sorry to say it, not many people believe us...

As vile as it is, I think we have to be like the queen and say nothing. so hard to do but if I had my time again it is what I'd do, no question.

Well when I say anyone, I mean close friends and family. With the DCs they've seen him moan and not want to take them out anywhere and they've seen him hide himself away in the office and come in from work moaning about the mess, so to be honest, its nothing they wouldn't already know, its just pointing out that its difficult to live with someone whose standards are so high and who won't allow anyone to make a mistake.

I think its best for them to know that it isn't a healthy way for most people to live, but for him, order and peace make him happy, whereas for me affection and freedom to be myself make me happy.

well... this may not go down well but how old are your kids? It hurt my kids when I made negative comments about their dad, no matter how well put (or how true!). I'm sorry to say it but they didn't believe me at the end of the day, they believed him. So I can't help thinking you're playing with fire tbh .

Don't forget how manipulative narcs are! how charming, how plausible...

I can see where you're coming from, but I think its more confusing for them (well DS1 really, who is 12 and is the only one I've gone into any detail with) to not be told why this is happening. He's already seeing that H is more attentive and committed to them now that he's left than he ever was before, so I don't think he sees it as negatives, its just the truth as he knows it.

He often asked why Daddy didn't want to spend time with him/us and was very aware of the 'lack' in his life before, so to be able to say that I also felt that lack of affection and I couldn't live like that is just being honest. I don't want him to think I'm being unfair on H making him move out when he's a perfectly lovely dad now - I know that wouldn't have ever happened with him living here.

I've had threads on here before where H has called DS a retard to his face, said "just how stupid are you?" etc while ranting about DS not doing as he's told and made his life a misery over wet bath mats and borrowed socks, so DS has borne more than his fair share of shit for a 12 y/o.

I don't want him to think that any of that was justified but while H was here I was too down-trodden to really stick up for DS, whereas now I can say to him "that was wrong - Daddy knows that now and he is doing all he can to make it up to you, unfortunately its too late to fix things between the two of us" so I honestly think that being up front with him about why things are the way they are is the only fair thing to do, so that he knows that his feelings are valid and safe with me.

My X was never really charming in the sense that all of these men were, which is why I'm not fully committed to the label, I think he was an 'accidental' narc without the calculating controlling parts, but with all the self-centred superiority. Of course he'll never admit to the DCs that he did anything wrong, but he doesn't need to. They already know it because they lived with it.

DoingIt , remember that narcissistic PD is a disorder on a spectrum. There will be other PDs in the mix too.

You don't have to 'commit' to a label either: just the knowledge that you are dealing with someone who is not deal-able with in the way that average human relations go, should certainly help you know that there's really nothing you can do right.

I feel you're doing the right thing, DoingIt. This is purely personal: I grew up knowing how to make all the excuses imaginable for sociopathic parents, which left me only too willing & able to make allowances for self-centred nutters in adulthood. My role model was a self-centred nutter who insisted (as she does even now) that the violent psychopath who dominated my life with fear was a fascinating, desirable example of manhood. Naturally I felt my destiny was to serve a man like him - and suffer bravely. Looking at my sibs, I would say they were all affected too.

You're not only showing your DC that the kind of 'love' which doesn't care for them is to be rejected, you're affirming their feeling that they deserve to be safely loved. If the adults around me had said "Your father is wrong to terrify you; you deserve better", I believe it would have made a difference. My mother never told me I deserved better. You are telling, and showing, your children.

I feel like a voice in the wilderness tolling doom and gloom here but...

narcs do nothing for anyone else. and I mean anyone - which includes their kids. If he's being an 'attentive, engaged dad' it's because he has a plan up his sleeve. It may or may not be that he is setting the scene to manipulate your kids against you. Remember, narcs can certainly wait and do the long haul.

remember also how totally I loved my narc? and I was an adult. which I still am, incidentally, and I still have stuff to learn re that I loved him with all my heart because he held up a mirror that showed me exactly what I wanted/needed to see. He tired of me ('discard') and spat me out but he never spat our kids out - they were too valuable in the fight against me. hearts and minds, remember - they're not after the small, insignificant stuff but the major victories/coups.

doom and gloom, as I said

You are right, Springy.

A few people who used to be on the long-running EA threads have pro-actively taught their school-age children to recognise and reject abusive tactics. I only know a few bits & bobs ... and am awestruck They did the Freedom Programme, I believe, and took what they learned back home to their children.

I keep using 'they' when I mean narcs, which confuses the blasted thing somewhat.

I told my kids, or flagged up the main signposts, precisely for the reasons you outline garlic re I should have been told, somebody should have said, that my dad was a controlling, sadistic bully (and, like your mum, my mum to this day fawns around him like his doting slave - it's a bit ewww, actually).

I think that telling your kids about their dad, flagging up the main signposts, needs to be done entirely without emotion (though I'm not saying you are emotional about it DIFM - I don't know). It needs to be put across as a statement of fact but with no heat iyswim. it's the heat that hurts the kids.

I think you make an important point.

One little story from a 'recovery' friend - I hope she won't mind my telling it. She taught her DC about the EA tactic of "defining" and why it's wrong. Very soon afterwards, one of the children was told something about themselves by a teacher. The child pulled the teacher up clearly and politely, without using the jargon term, for making an unreasonable assumption about them.

How fantastic is that?!

Please tell me about the 'defining' tactic garlic! I have recently been 'defined' and I knew there was something wrong about it but didn't know quite what.

Yes it is fantastic

Rather than fudge it, I'm trying to find a good website I bookmarked ...

I've given up, sorry!

Instead, I found this: www.heart-2-heart.ca/men/page3.htm. The author cites a study on how prisoners were 'turned' ... The first stage of brainwashing is assault on identity. And that is the purpose of telling you about yourself, is it not? To take ownership of your identity, the better to manipulate you.

Springy, I'm sure he's only spending so much time with them to get at me, given what he's said about spending time with them before. In the beginning I got upset and said it wasn't fair for him to suddenly start taking them away from me for days at a time - originally we'd said one night at a time, twice a week, but now its often 2 nights in a row + an extra day, so they were away on sunday and now I won't see them from this morning til Thursday after school

However, I know that as with everything else he's ever done, the novelty will wear off and he will soon drop it to one night at a time again if I don't appear to be hurt by it anymore.

The DCs keep wavering about whether its too long and saying they only want to stay with him for one night, then change their minds, so I will go with what they want and try to appreciate them for the time they're with me.

If he seriously wants to hold down a full-time shift work job and go for 50/50 parenting, good luck to him. I would miss the DCs dreadfully but I can't stop him, he's their dad and any attempt to try an manipulate the situation will end in me looking like a mad woman and him like the big-earning, responsible, loving & involved dad that he's painting himself as now.

All I can do is build up their confidence and self-worth so that if he starts on them they know its unacceptable and let them know that I'm always here, a solid, stable and comforting presence who will show them nothing but love.

as admirable as that is, it didn't work for me or my kids

if I don't appear to be hurt by it anymore - there's the key: don't ever let him know what hurts you. You have to fake it.

The really freaky thing I have discovered from you ladies is the

idealise - devalue - discard.

I found this DEVASTATING and barely believable, when I was experiencing it. Now, even worse, I find where it comes from.

Although, he hasn't quite managed the discard, and I don't know why. I suppose he doesn't want to lose his family or his assets.

The worst question for me to ask is, 'why are you still here'?

I was talking about this with someone yesterday, Wobbly. When I was young, we recognised "idealise, devalue, discard" but called it putting you on a pedestal. Young women's magazines featured regular articles on the dangers of men who put you on a pedestal like a plaster goddess, as they would eventually realise you had feet of clay - after which they'd tear down your metaphorical statue and smash it to bits.
Ring any bells?

Hi ABWN and everyone else :)

I've been lurking on this thread for a while now. Can I just say I think you are all fantastic considering what you've been through. The support and advice you give is admirable...

I'm about EA and Narc behaviour...are there any differences or are they the same thing?

they would eventually realise you had feet of clay - translates to "realise you were a messy human, not a marble icon".

Argh exp did the prison thing. Of course he was ex forces and knew a thing or two about hostage taking.

I think we often put new partners on a pedestal when the relationship is shiny and new. I think IDD is a bit different because they never believe you are perfect, just make you think they think you are.

I do know that the more strength I showed the nastier exp got. I always knew that going back to work would probably kill the marriage and I was right. All that status and responsibility he couldn't work out how to yank away from me. Ha ha nerrrr! Trying to get me sacked was another tactic. Luckily I work for the council where you don't get randomly fired for being late etc to exp's irritation.

With exp it was a metaphorical discard rather than actual. He'd have kept me around for years to torture.

'It hurt my kids when I made negative comments about their dad, no matter how well put (or how true!).'

To be honest I have found this too. And they are in their late teens etc. We just can't say it.