Absolutely LIVID at what Mother-in-Law has just said to me. What to do? please help.

[almosttoolividforwords]

I have name changed for this one.

I have 2 DC aged 6 (from previous relationship) and nearly 3. My marriage has been very up and down and if I'm honest I think we would be be out of the relationship had it not been for the DC.

MIL has been very interfering from the start but I have let it go, despite different friends and even my counselling lady (for trauma I had in past) having said that they are worried about how she acts. MIL has intimated on a couple of occasions outrageous things like -

5 years ago when me and H moved in together I overheard a conversation where she asked H if he really thought he should be moving in with someone who already has a child, that she "never thought he would" and was he really sure it was the right thing for him etc . And also telling him that he would "always have a home here you know that" . double .

Also once she expressed disbelief that I wanted to go back to work after my maternity leave (having no idea of our financial situation at all) and she said in a phonecall to me "Money means more to you than children" !

H does backshifts and I do days so he often brings the youngest to MIL's during the daytimes. Tonight I got the following text message from MIL when DC back home and in bed -

MIL "How is (dc1) and (dc2)?"

me - "fine. how was (dc1) today when at yours?"

MIL "fine but to be honest he didn't want to go home so that makes me concerned"

me - "what do you mean exactly by that statement?"

MIL - "what do you not understand what the word concerned means?"

MIL - "I'll put it in simple terms to you so you maybe can understand. little (eldest dc, nearly 7) is sick of doing house work that her mother should be doing, she is 6 not 16. and as for (youngest dc) you deal with the bonding before you leave it too late. and maybe cut down on your shouting in front of them"

WHAT IN THE NAME OF ?!!!!

I in no way force my eldest to do too much housework at all. She does age appropriate things like hang up socks, quick swish of her sibling's highchair with a baby wipe, "help" me clean out hoover by holding open the bag, tidy away toys etc. If anything, it was MIL who spoiled H and now he is a lazy sod!

As for the bonding thing, I have no idea what she is on about. Perhaps she is deranged. I had PND with my eldest but I didn't even know MIL then and I was terrified I'd get it a second time but didn't get it, but thankfully I never and have a lovely relationship with DC always cuddling and kissing him, maybe not so much publicly in front of her.

I do shout, but no more than most mothers I know!

All I can guess is that it is her way of trying to undermine my role as a mother. Because there really is no truth in what she says. H has a nasty habit of saying (nasty) things to me in arguments about my parenting but is generally more loyal and did stick up for me when she had her comment about me going back to work.

Does anyone have any advice on this? It has really quite scared and intimidated me. Should I cut down her contact by drastically cutting work hours (she does see them a lot) and not allow her to see them on weekends or anything if she is obviously just gathering "ammo" to use against me? I have been shaking with anger for ages over this. Phoned H at work and told him but he is busy and gave a curt "It's none of my business" response .
aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhh

As it stands at the moment though, H has DS for 4 days whilst I work though,and does lots of "father-son" activities with him too, so wouldn't that give him a good chance at getting residency? I have heard horror stories. Should I try to create a new "status quo" where I only work 2 days and am with them myself as much as possible first?

I don't know how much is coming from MIL and how much H. I do know that usually she says the things first before H repeats them, ie the dislike of childminders etc. H maintains this morning that he had no idea she had said that and perhaps she is just being "over protective of me since hearing about our problems or overbearing" !!! . I pointed out that whatever she thinks of me due to our marriage problems it does not excuse or even explain the vile stuff about the children. I do think they are both in it together but I do think she is driving it, due to the fact she has recently ramped it up a lot after finding out the other day about us possibly splitting, so has chosen her moment. My therapist seems to think that MIL is driving it ultimately, but H is going along with it and that his loyalties should be to me and DC.

I've taken the day off work, calling solicitors (if any are open) and I'm off tomorrow anyway.

I was sick this morning and can't eat. Did not sleep a wink, tossed and turned all night .

Yes make sure you look after DCs majority of the time to be the primary carer for a while. When DS goes to school you could increase your hours again. The big question is - do you want to be with him?

Sorry if I have missed the point spectacularly (have only skim read and am for you) - but the very first thing I would do is cut contact completely with MIL. No way should this damaging, vindictive woman be allowed to get inside your son's head.

No. I'm pretty sure I don't want to be with him long term. We do not get on emotionally, and a big part of that is to do with the situation with his mother. We do work OK practically ie sharing housework, money etc and quite amicable usually so long as I don't ask him for anything emotional (!), I have been miserable for a long time with him and the situation with his mother sabotaging things and him letting her -
once when we were discussing how unhappy I am with the fact we don't have family time (I work, he works, and on his time off he goes fishing etc, family time very rare) and we managed to agree on one day a week family time - his mother got wind of it and said to me (again out of the blue IN FRONT OF CHILDREN) "Did your father have so-called family time when you were growing up? Don't be so ridiculous, the man needs to earn an income, what will you have him as next , a house husband?!"

But if we split he will move straight back to her home since it is nearer his work, and then the trouble will really begin / get worse, since he has Parental Responsibility too.

Have spoken to 2 solicitors this morning. One said to come in tomorrow at 4pm (even though I sounded like a rambling idiot) , will cost me £96 until I can get proof of H income (!) the second one I spoke to was the paralegal of a solicitors who sounded more sympathetic and said I can come in tomorrow at 12 for her to take notes and get me sorted for legal aid and she will book me in for the actual solicitor on Thursday.They both seemed to want to know if me and H were separated or not. But I guess at this moment I don't really know, we are not officially. So I turned into a babbling idiot on phone!

Can you instruct more than one? Or do you just visit first and see who you prefer to instruct you? The one I saw regarding other things years ago was more of a criminal lawyer recommended by a family member and not very good on family law, but the ones I have searched now say "family law" and are members of children panel?

I feel a little better now that I've actually done something, but sooo tired. Not hungry at all.

Both kids are due to be with H tomorrow and go swimming though as I have job interview at 9.30 am (I'd applied for ages ago - less hours than I'm on now though, don't even know if there is any point in going now, especially since I'd have to leave them with H. Job hours are 8-12 Mon to Fri so would be good when DS goes to nursery as he could get 5 mornings in nursery I assume and most of care for job would be covered by that). argh.

Agree with proud as usual!

Yes go to a family law society one as they are less into sending silly letters & mud slinging at your expense. They need also to look at legal aid.

Just tell the solicitors that you are getting your ducks in a row and want to make sure you know your position when you separate.

The one thing you can say very calmly to your H is that you feel so sorry for him, that he has never managed to get away from his mother and that is has cost him all his relationships, but that it is not anything you can help him with.

The more kindly and sympathetically that TRUTH is stated, the more devastating it will be for him.

I am guessing you don't have much family support yourself. Where does your friend live, and can you move to be closer to her?

Thanks. I will definitely say that, because I can't say we have separated and then they start sending letters to him at his mother's address and he isn't even aware that he has moved out ! Nor can I say I want to stay with him because (well, I don't , unless it would harm my position in terms of DS to split) I feel that the lawyer would then just advise me that his mother has no rights , without grasping the actual full picture.

Most of my friends live nearby enough, dotted around our local area. However I do not want to burden them too much as one has just been through a divorce (of same sex civil partnership), one has just split with her own P, and the other has no kids but accommodation probs at the moment. I texted my sister this morning and she said she will email a social worker friend she knows through work (my sis does work with kids in schools).

I spoke to one solicitor by email/then phone and the other I saw in person. They all offered free initial advice and they only charged once I instructed them to act on my behalf.

And exH was still in the family home

OK be calm. If you are working a few hours mon-fri in the morning, then that means you are the primary carer. You have them overnight don't you? So, a few hours childcare a day, especially if you're picking them up and doing things in the afternoon, putting them to bed etc. is fine and isn't "establishing" anything. When does your DS go into childcare? Once that happens you are absolutey sorted, as you will have no need at all of MIL's childcare. So all the visiting is "social" andyou can really cut that down.

You need to take your time and approach this carefully. You do need to strengthen your bond with your DS, not because you are in any way a bad mother, but because your MIL sounds like she is trying to break that bond. So you need to reassure your DS that you are his mother, you love him and do some extra fun things with him. Don't let your H be the fun parent while you do all the necessary but dull parenting, start taking him off for things he enjoys as well.

Your MIL is not some evil genius. She's just a nasty cow. You're stronger and smarter than her, and you can get this to go your way. But you need to set your goals (making yourself indisputably the primary caregiver, getting MIL out of the picture in terms of childcare, selecting your own nursery), work out exactly how to achieve this and then doing it carefully and sensibly. She's a bully, and is expecting you to go crazy, driving your H further into her grasp as you rant and rave about how evil she is. If you don't react the way she expects, you have time to move forward with your goals while she regroups and find another tactic.

Sorry if I wasn't clear before. I'm not a solicitor but I know that there is no way in hell Mil/H (it would be H, using her as carer) could get full residence- even of his biological DS. However as it stands they have a strong case for shared residence. If you cut down to 2 days with her as carer, they will retain a strong case for those days.

Why on earth would you want to allow this? Cut the cord straight away and get DS to a carer chosen by you. Your H's attitude to your mother's viciousness- pretending to be 'neutral'- is atrocious and abusive.

I think it is quite clear that MiL is 'working on' the kids- trying to encourage them to express dislike for you and a preference for her. Kids are very vulnerable to this kind of thing. Get them out of her orbit right now. The sooner the better. Even if H immediately sought a divorce petition as a result, you've still taken them out of her care and his secret weapon is gone as the status quo will now be different: you as main carer and part time childcare chosen and organised by you, which he is not capable of doing.

A court would probably look askance at her abusive texts too, and they tend not to be very keen on claims to be the 'better parent', so do keep a record.

What breaktime73 said. Your MiL is a horrible person. Only someone evil would try to poison a child's relationship with its mother. It's not the work of a loving grandmother, is it?

You absolutely must get them away from her, not let her spend any more time with them unsupervised. She is definitely working on them and it has to stop. You can't allow yourself to be marginalised.

Find a good lawyer who is sympathetic to the issues, has experience of this and will fight on your behalf.

I've been feeling sick about this all day. I think it may have been possible that I have been subtly bullied for years by her / them, and this is the culmination of it.

You are all saying to just take DS out of her care whilst I'm at work and put him into childcare. It seems like the most natural thing in the world for a mother to decide where her own child is cared for whilst she works (well it does to everyone else), but the thought of going against MIL and H wishes to put him in childcare makes me feel sick with fear for some reason. My immediate thought is - oh no I couldn't do that! What would they do?! They'd take him away forever! But you are all right, this is not the right way to think about it.

My therapist said things about boundaries in regards to MIL. I think I have let her get away with murder for the last few years because of fear of her reactions (quite extreme, she did once throw a glass at H which injured him, and she can be generally over the top) and for a quiet life. I thought I was being accommodating! The more I think about it, I think WHY did I let her get away with choosing and ARRANGING the nursery for DS and just handing me the forms moaning about why can't his father just fill them in (!) - why on Earth didn't I say something! Numerous times she has taken it upon herself whilst watching DS to take him to doctors over trivial things like nappy rash etc (she is hyperchondriac), WITHOUT FIRST CALLING ME OR GETTING MY PERMISSION. I have been irate every time this has happened but never confronted her on it. She would have gone bonkers at me and H would have just shrugged it off (one major problem of relationship has been that he rarely acknowledges any negative feelings I may have about anything in general - so I just get more and more wound up). I have known that I was not happy with these arrangements but have let them go ahead because the thought of confronting her makes me feel dread and ill.

I get what you are saying about the job only being mornings, so I could just pick him up at 12.30, but I imagine H (if we split and he lived there) or MIL just saying something like "oh no it's ok I'll just give him his dinner" and me just relenting but being angry and sad I never stood up to it. I feel sick at the thought of saying to her "no I am going to pick up DS at 12.30, ask H to meet me at the bus stop".

She once DECIDED that DS was staying the night there because he had been sick once and apparently it would take "ages" to clean and change him. She was shrieking in the background as H was actually trying to discuss what to do about it with me (not being pushy actually). I had to call back in 5 mins because I could hardly hear him for her shrieking in the background telling him to get off the phone to me and help her clean it etc

It feels like I have allowed this in a way because I am scared of her, or them (more MIL - H is cantankerous but easier to reason with and not as much of a loose canon with the reactions).

Feel sick, hot and cold and shaky, like coming out of a fog. Does anyone know the best things I should be asking the solicitors tomorrow? I feel as if my fear that they will take him from me is so strong I will just babble a load of shit and it won't be constructive.

the fact that you are sick with fear over CHOOSING WHERE YOUR SON GETS CHILDCARE and not leaving him with an abusive woman (oh and now I see she's violent too...it gets worse...), says to me that you have been abused (by H it seems- but were you abused as a child so that you feel used to accepting being bullied?) and in an intolerable situation for a long time.

Why the heck are you letting this woman, who is not even YOUR mother, bully you?

They CANNOT take him away forever; that would be child abduction and a criminal offence! And really wouldn't look good for them in a family court....

BTW tell solicitors you have evidence MiL is abusing your children and verbally abusing you. I am pretty sure solicitor will give you the advice I and others have given you. Arrange different care and make plans to separate so you get yourself and your kids away from this toxic pair.

Thanks, it is reassuring to know that they cannot just take him forever and that it wouldn't look good to a court if they did.

I keep thinking that they can't they can't but they seem so strong and I think they are bullies. She says I'm a bully .

I had a good childhood up until I was 12, was then horrendous from then on until I was about 23. Probably there is something in it. I have been coming on great in the past couple of years though. Got counselling now, and much stronger and more assertive (for me!) , perhaps that is what she is seeing evidence of and doesn't like? She has always looked upon DS as "hers" or an extension of her, I think , although she has never actually said that. I sense it, and others have commented on it but in a 'joking' way. It's certainly not funny to me. .

And I was bullied my a couple of aunts (in my own family) when I had DD as a single teenager. Accused of being "mentally ill" "neglectful" etc when the Health Visitor reassured me there was ZERO evidence of either!!! and that I was just over-anxious and with PND.

It seems I don't have energy left to fight anymore battles in life (and there have been A LOT of them!!) just as I was feeling better and things were on the up. But I will have to, I don't have the choice because I feel as if I would shrivel up and die if I was to be alienated from my DS.

I have text messages of clear abuse from her towards ME from last year and also last night. Would this count to show them?

What evidence of abusing children though?

it is abusive to try to undermine a parent and turn the child against them. It's called 'parental alienation', but it's very hard to prove, of course.

Yes I mean exactly that re. verbal abuse- the abusive text messages to you.

It sounds as if you are used to taking shit. But you also sound a strong person deep down. You brought up dd by yourself etc.

DS is NOT hers and you need to disabuse her of that notion straight away.

Please don't let this woman undermine you in this way, she has no right to choose a nursery place for your son. You are his mother; Not her!

Please don't worry so much that this woman might win residency should your marriage break down. It's unlikely any court would consider splitting up your children and neither MIL or DH are likely to have any claim to your 6 year old. This woman sounds poisonous.

It sounds like you are on the same path with MIL as your DH has been all his life- you are just coming up several years behind him and have now realised that her behavoir is utterly vile and you can do something about it. He has obviously been bullied, brainwashed and emotionally beaten into submission. I bet he had the same sick feeling in the pit of his stomach as you have right now if he had dared to disagree with her (I think you said earlier in your thread that he accidently let it slip that he doesn't even love her) . Now he just goes along with her wishes for as you say a quiet life. What an extremely damaging environment and she is now starting on your children. Be strong and don't be afraid- get your legal shit sorted ASAP and get her out of yours and your DC's life before she causes anymore harm.

On coming back from the shop DS pointed at our house as soon as he saw it and said "this house is boring" . Doesn't sound like something he would say, and he doesn't usually find shops exciting in comparison. maybe a coincidence but I'm reading into everything at the moment. I just spent nearly an hour playing with the DC to try to make him think it's an exciting place.

I would talk to your health visitor about all of this. Mumsnet is fine, but you need RL support and she sounds kind and sympathetic. I wouldn't mention residence, but talk about what your DS is saying, and how you're concerned that MIL is saying things. Show her the texts.

Don't worry about 'home is boring' type comments, that's what all DC think! Boring home is fine. I think more important to realise is that you are not (or mustn't be) in competition with your MiL or her house. You are the mother, she is a long distant second.

Change the childcare arrangements immediately and organise ANYTHING that means your MiL can't have them for a while and then permanent arrangements that won't involve her. Tell your DH that you are sad you've had to do it him but once she had called you nasty and manipulative you realised you couldn't leave your children with her. You're sorry you didn't discuss it with him but you understand you couldn't put him in the middle.

Totally agree sundaegirl!