As a modern man I feel conned

[DadIsSad]

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

You talk about your depression as if it's the key issue that needs solving in this situation.

you realise the depression is just a side-effect right? you're depressed because you're too afraid to get angry with your DW (for basically conning you, and then ignoring how you feel about it) and take control by leaving.

so you turn the anger inwards, and that manifests as depression.

so you spend your time wittering about how you're meant to tell her you're depressed, how you can make her see it, as if that will make her change her behaviour. that is completely inconsequential. it's all classic misdirection, satisfying your need to avoid confrontation. as long as you're wringing your hands about depression, you can conveniently avoid doing anything about it.

do you not see that she DOESN'T CARE you are depressed. she doesn't give a fuck. she KNOWS you are just going to put up with any kind of indignity, she knows how to paralyse you (talking about how you're blackmailing her and so on) and make the depression deeper, and hence entrench you deeper and deeper into a situation where you are miserable and she is content.

she doesn't want to sleep with you. she doesn't care how you feel about that. she DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOU. you need to realise that and get angry about it and start taking action.

stop wondering about how to express your depression to her. you are like a battered wife who wonders how she can express to her abusive husband how being beaten is making her feel inside. the answer to your question is to LEAVE.

if you can't find it within yourself to do that, either accept that your life is going to be shit for the rest of its duration, or start shagging other women on the side until you find one that will replace your DW in a way that pleases you, and then move on to her. (incidentally, this is how most men who can't face confrontation deal with things, so you will be in good company)

Oikopolis has a lot of good points there.

Many posters seem to be really overcomplicating what seems like a straightforward problem? DW does not want sex and she does not want to explore with you why or if this might change. You want a physical relationship - as a considerable number of adults also do.

OP - you can't change her, just like you can't change anyone's behaviour. It sounds like it was not fair of her to say that if you did more about the house she would want sex with you as it all seems to go a lot deeper than that - but maybe she believed or even wanted that to be the case and now you have changed she sees that she still can't.

It sounds like you are wasting your time with Relate, you haven't been able to bring up the true problem. Why not go to one more session at least and make sure it is the focus of the session?

I have to agree with Oikopolis that unless there is something else going on that you have completely missed or haven't ever told us.

Use your next session to directly ask whether she is interested in ever having sex with you again - this is the root of the issue to you. She won't like it she doesn't want to rock the status quo she probably doesn't want to break up the family to be a single parent etc however if you are miserable then you are not giving your dc a decent role model in how to enjoy life.

Your decision (repeating what is said above) is to either chose to stay and be celibate and learn to be happy with it or leave and hope that you find a partner with whom you can have a mutually satisfy relationship.

It has taken DH and I several weeks to really get to the root of our issues but it was the same situation he was getting all that he (thinks) he wants out of our marriage/family life whilst I am not and after 2 very miserable years I suppose I have issued an ultimatum - we work to resolve a compromise where we are both happy or it's over because it's killing me slowly but surely. These are issues we have colluded to avoid for years.

I haven't read all this thread, so sorry if this is a bit of of sequence or a bit of a random question, but have you actually asked your wife directly if she's ever had an orgasm?
Also, have you asked her if she wants to have an orgasm?
Did you ever talk about it before you got married? (i.e. when you say your sex life was good)
Sorry, turned into 3 questions !

out of sequence

I don't see any reason not to think every word Oikopolis has said above is spot on. You're being manipulated, conned and played OP, by someone who, when it comes down to it, isn't interested in you (but also as far as I can see, isn't interested in seeing you move on).

Step up and change things now because it's only you who has the power to do that.

Dad, I will just say that by last September my marriage had become sexless, and my h claimed depression, amongst other things. There were a number of other issues, mainly to do with his 'withdrawing' from the relationship.

We also got on OK mainly on a work and kids chat etc basis.

I had spent a couple of years where you are now, miserable constantly and unable to get him to change or compromise on anything.

I decided to leave him, and really meant it, at the end, especially after finding a few (more) photos of woemen he was net sexting on the computer.

Surprisingly, I felt a lot better after making that final decision, and then, surprise, surprise , he changed totally.

Just to clarify, I think that Oikopolis is right, basically, and that your wife is self centred.

I think you should make preparations to leave. Stop fearing the future- a year down the line I dont think you will regret it.

And it is just possible that your decision to do this will have the effect of changing her attitude, as it will certainly put her for once in the position of doing the chasng, if she values your relationship at all.

And if it doesnt, then she was never, ever going to.

This situation is the cause of your depression.

Thanks for all the replies - I've not gone away, just been lurking. If nothing else I think it's helped me a lot with understanding my depression - I'd never really thought about how it's another step removed, but it all makes sense that it's actually down to frustration about not being able to take control of my own life (I had meant to mention how it felt like I'm not actually in control of my own happiness). The trouble being that the only action it seems I do have direct control over is destined to actually result in a lot more unhappiness.

I desperately want to get some individual counselling to help me get my head around things (and maybe to advise me on how to approach talking to my DW - do they do things like that?), but it's a 6-9 month wait to see somebody on the NHS around here. I'm trying to get something through Relate but they don't seem to have any slots which fit in, and it also means we can't go as a couple (though that has ended, it does also kind of rule out the sexual therapy people are suggesting on the off-chance DW agreed to that) though they have just rung and offered me the slot I was after whilst I was writing this, which I've taken. To some extent I'm on here as a substitute for that, so if I don't come back it may just be that the counselling rather than the relationship is going well!

I'll answer some questions and give a bit more detail - I've not been deliberately hiding most of the important stuff, as I think I've actually posted a lot of this before on previous threads (I first posted on mn about my issues 18months ago, before my depression really kicked in), but I didn't want to make my initial post so long that everybody gave up before reading it, and I have a feeling this one is going to go that way. Though I have also been trying to avoid outing myself - there is at least one specific thing which would make me very easily identifiable! Then again I'm kind of coming round to the idea that it wouldn't be so bad if people in real life knew (though I'm not about to go round telling everybody, it might not be a complete disaster if somebody reading this knows me and guesses), so maybe I will give away a bit more. I think I've even decided to mention a bit to my sister about being depressed and having relationship trouble, and hope she doesn't then decide to dig too much.

OP - I don't think any one is suggesting you have an affair, more that they suggest you discuss the option of extra-marital sex with your wife and see how she reacts?

Though I would be wary of making it sound like 'if you don't have sex with me I will find it elsewhere'. In fact I think the only sensible and fair thing you can do (For both of you) is leave the relationship.

The trouble being that the only action it seems I do have direct control over is destined to actually result in a lot more unhappiness.

You don't know that, you only think it cos it would represent a leap into the unknown, plus your DW is programming your mind into thinking that way cos of course you leaving is not in her interest is it.

I don't think all the couples counselling in the world would help OP but I do think counselling for yourself alone might help you see that you should be trying to break free from the cycle.

Oh dear, this is very sad. I agree with the other posters saying this is not about gender, but the anger and frustration in your OP is understandable.

It doesn't sound like you can ever get the sex life you would like with your wife and so the only real answer, in my opinion, is to leave.

I was with my ex for 11 years and although there was lots of sex the chemistry was never there (for me at least) and the quality of our sex life was poor. Thankfully we had no children which made the decision to end the relationship easier. We were also great platonic friends which is why the relationship lasted as long as it did. I often wonder what would have happened if we had stayed together, got married and had children and I fear it would have ended up like you and your DW.

She will hate you at first but hopefully in a few years you will both have moved on and found new love and healthy, happy sex lives with other, more compatible, people.

I am sorry you are both in this situation but, as someone else said, it sounds like deep down she also knows it must end.

OP, are you having no sex at all ever?

DadIsSad

I can't really give any advice beyond what's been offered so far in terms of the relationship.

Personally I can't really see seeking sex / intimacy outside of the marriage as any kind of solution. It may allay your frustration currently but I can't see how you could do so in the long term.

If you were to split it doesn't have to mean doom and gloom. It certainly presents a different set of challenges but it can work if you are able to have a decent relationship with the mother of your children. ( forgive me if you already have experience in this area, something tells me you may have had a bad experience previously )

Thanks again to those who understand that I don't have a downer on all womenkind, and that my OP is just an outpouring of my anger and frustration.

So an answer to some of the questions:
First of all I'll just get out of the way that I've never had an affair or slept with a prostitute. The sex was OK when we married - maybe not as frequent as I'd like, and probably what most people would think of as very infrequent, but not something I couldn't cope with. It had been more frequent initially, and I suppose I hoped it might get better again, however it actually then tailed off even more. It then totally stopped when we had kids. Since conceiving the first over 6 years ago we've now had sex 3 times, once when conceiving the second, once last November (when I failed to climax) and then just over 3 weeks ago.

There is another issue going on here relating to my sporting activity. As mentioned above, the one reason DW came up with for finding me attractive in our last Relate meeting was me being sporty. I still am sporty - though I obviously do a lot less than I used to before children when I competed at a very high level, I think most people still think I'm very obsessed with it (and maybe despite spending a lot less time on it I am). The trouble with this and my relationship is that I understand my DW came to resent the amount of time I spent on this (though this didn't change from before I met her), and even though I'd cut back a huge amount, particularly so after having children. I think her dislike of me doing the sport has got in the way of her finding me attractive for doing it A really complex issue here, as she knows how important it was to my mental health so used to encourage me out sometimes. I can sense a lot of "ahas" to that last sentence (though it's not something I haven't mentioned before) - the trouble is that where in the past I found I just needed to do a bit of exercise to lift me out of a bad mood, I've found that no longer works. Either the exercise just doesn't do it any more (possible as I'm very goal focussed, and it's frustrating because I'm no longer as good as I was), or my depression is so much deeper.

The particular relevance of the sport is that I think it used to help me ignore the lack of sex life (though one which was far better than I've had for the last 6 years). DW suggested that me winning an event was better for me than sex - all I can say is that it was different. The trouble now is that everything has come to a head. I no longer have a sex life at all (or at least for practical purposes didn't for a long, long time), which lead to me thinking seriously about how important it is to me. This has coincided with doing less sport to provide me with fulfilment in other ways - it's now 4 years since I last won a big event, and over a year I think since I won anything at all, when I used to win something or other every month or so (sorry if that's all confusing, giving more detail would just be outing myself). So I now find myself feeling that actually I want an even better sex life than we had before children - not fair I know transferring my lack of satisfaction in sport into needing more sex, but I'm trying to be honest about my feelings (and that's not something I've expressed to DW, just the conclusion I've come to about how I feel). In any case, I was dis-satisfied with our sex life before, just that I coped and never really said anything - I felt that if I did I would just be nagging or pressurising DW to have sex she didn't want. Also I wouldn't have coped with the lack of sex life we have now even when competing as I did before.

More to come, but things to do...

Look, when your partner is either unwilling or unable to meet your needs, you have to accept this. You can't make her change, so you either continue living with her and accept her the way she is or you move on. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that can be done to change your wife into someone who is eager to have sex with you. She doesn't want to have sex, whether it's because she has no desire for you or no interest in sex. And she's entitled to feel like that, but not entitled to insist you remain celibate.

Solidgold hits the nail on the head as usual.

you're clutching at straws. this has fuck all to do with sport.

so you had sex 3 weeks ago after only having it a few times in years. how was it? was it her doing it just to please you due to the counselling? her making an effort? not that long ago given the usual infrequency of your relations.

She might be asexual, or gay, or who knows. But it sounds like you two got married with there already being issues of very mismatched sex drives - it's never a good thing if sex is important to you.

i mean come on, the woman does NOT want to have sex with you. so why would you want her to? knowing she doesn't want it and she doesn't climax and is only doing it because of pressure from you?

surely that would be some twisted, fucked up sex?

any sex you have with this woman is going to be coerced and therefore ethically dubious at best, rape at worst.

she doesn't want sex. you making her is wrong. you want sex ergo have sex with someone else with her consent whilst still together or after splitting up. but don't have sex with someone who DOES NOT WANT IT.

i'm actually not sure what you're after here. the answer is fairly obvious isn't it? if you don't like it you have to leave. did you think we were going to sit and think up ways of making someone have sex they don't want with you?

'Did you think we were going to sit and think up ways of making someone have sex they don't want with you?'

Yes.

Oh my.

Three times in 6 years is . . . wow. That's not even a little bit of a sex life. And I thought my 1 1/2 times a week was a bit grudging and unfair.

She's definitely either asexual (I understand this, most of the time. Unless I'm on holiday or totally relaxed it can seem a bit of another chore - but I think that as it makes DH happy and that makes me happy then I'm more than happy to try and get in the mood)

I think sexual counselling is the best option. If she doesn't want that then I'm afraid I don't think she also (as SGB said) has the right for you to be celibate. That is just totally unfair.

Personally, if my DH was asexual, I would quite happily live with that as most other things about our lives are good. But I don't think it would work the other way around and I would never expect him to live without sex that long.

Three times? Six years?

Swallowed a Fly, you're being obstructive.
He doesn't wasnt his wife to agree to sex, he wants her to want sex with him, totally different.

I have to agree with the many, it's time to grow some balls, forget about pleasing her in some ways only for the goalposts to be changed.
Either leave or accept that you will be miserable.

What SaF said. The sex was not 'ok' when you married, your wife wasn't having orgasms. This seems to have only started bothering you when she stopped having sex with you - before that it was apparently fine that she wasn't getting much out of it. Last november,when you 'failed to climax' - that was obviously noteworthy for you - for her, it was like that every single time.

I think this relationship is dead in the water, tbh. My advice would be to leave and aim for amicable co-parenting, which IME can work very well. Look for a partner who actually does want to have sex with you and then pay attention to their pleasure as well as your own.