As a modern man I feel conned

[DadIsSad]

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

Am also very disappointed in the women who thinks it's acceptable for him to get it elsewhere. I have not had sex with dp for a good few months now due to a painful gynae condition and subsequent surgery. Before that it was sparse as we have a small dd. but I would be devastated if he was getting it elsewhere.

Sadly I agree with those saying its time to call it a day

I endured many years with XH not wanting sex with me and it was utterly soul destroying. Every time you saw intimacy in a film, aTV advert or around you it was like a dagger to the heart. Why doesnt he want me ?

I am single now and would like to think if I ever found myself in that position again I would walk away.

By the way as an aside I am now divorced and whilst its not easy to be amicable ,civilised etc etc if you are then your DC should have minimal damage to their lives. Two and a half years down the line mine are the same levels at school , friendships etc and seem very happy . Of course they would prefer a happy home with Mum and Dad together but that wasnt how it was and if you are depressed it wont be how it is for yours either.

It is heartbreaking to lose or walk away from someone you are crazy about . I have made peace with the fact that I loved XH but he didnt feel the same and thats life. To be liberated from trying to make someone love/fancy you though is wonderful and much as it might seem impossible to you now a much much happier life

I think you should end the relationship - it doesn't sound like it can be fixed.
You can still spend lots of time with your kids after splitting up.

Dadisad- how are YOU physically?
Changed from when you first met or not?

My dh is a caveman type. I would find the idea of him posting on a forum- especially mn VERY weird. wtf? Have you thought that this may really annoy her? If she knows.

You sound quite introspective- but the issue is very typical- your wife isn't giving you sex.

fwiw I would not manage more than a month without sex- I would be very angry if we did not have sex for that long- so you have my every sympathy.

Possible causes? Does she earn more while you do more childcare and mn? That would have been weird to me a few few years ago. But my dh is self-employed and works from home a lot. He is almost retired some days- but I don't mind it now. Could the role reversal be affecting her appetite?

My dh does not really think about sex/emotions in the way you seem to. He thinks about his dick-in common with many men- rather than how I am feeling. However, he cannot enjoy sex unless we are both having a good time- so he is not completelydisconnected from his emotions either.

I suppose I will get flamed for this.

But I think you sound very sensitive, and possibly its just not for her? Has she given you a reason for this non-sex life? How long have you not had sex for?

Hi OP

Picking up on what klickklack has touched on, could the issue be related to want and need. A long term relationship evolves obv. and when DC are introduced we have to adapt. I was initially attracted to my DP because he was "rugged". I saw qualities in him that were very masculine and this appealed to me. Having DC I needed him to adapt - I couldn't have coped with doing everything and needed him to pull more of the load. This helped with my sanity and day to day happiness but it caused deeper emotional issues which we have only got past through a LOT of counselling and open communication. So what I am saying is that people change and it sounds like she has asked you to make changes because she isn't going to be attracted to a man who doesn't support her in terms of the family. But aside from that and in your time alone together she may struggle to remember the "original" iyswim? So in terms of her happiness day to day you are ticking all the boxes but maybe that has affected how she sees you sexually.

I would also say that depression is something DP has battled for a long time and that has also had an effect on us. I struggled to fully understand how he was feeling because he finds it very hard to articulate and I was guilty of dismissing how bad it actually was. Its also easy to detach slightly when you don't want to fall into the trap of taking their depression on as a responsibility. After counselling etc I made a choice to support him in his recovery, so I no longer leave him to it etc and do allow him to vent at me which many women would not be happy to do. Fortunately our relationship is strong enough and we are clear and open about our feelings so that I know when he "lashes out" (verbally) he is struggling to express emotions and that he knows he can do that with me because I understand. Ten minutes later he is usually in tears and the need to vent has passed and I am then able to support him in dealing with the emotions etc. This however is a choice I made, its not something he foisted on me, and it was discussed in counselling so that i know there is nothing sinister at work. Prior to making this decision the depression was becoming a gaping chasm in our relationship and neither of us knew how we could bridge it.

You need to talk to her, thats my only advice, talk and talk and then talk some more. Most of our "breakthroughs" were made when we were talking about something else - not premediated thoughts etc. IMO if she isn't willing to sit and talk then she isn't willling to understand, at which point the choice has been made for you. I do understand how hard depression is and for those saying you are wallowing I would say that you are being dismissive. It is never possible to just "cheer up" otherwise there wouldn't be a need to ADs etc.

All the best to you. I hope that this gets resolved one way or the other because it is clearly affected you which is sad to see.

How old is your DW? There's a lot of emphasis on emotional reasons for not wanting sex, but is it possible there's some hormonal reason? The reason I ask is that I am 45 and have noticed that over the last couple of years, my interest in the bedroom department has been dropping off. FWIW I still think my DH is very attractive, but frankly, I can't really be bothered with sex.

I'm off down the docs to see about some HRT, because when I was younger, I lived with another man, who I definitely didn't fancy towards the end, but this is different. If Brad Pitt walked in the room, I probably wouldn't bat an eyelid now. It's definitely hormonal with me.

Might be worth thinking about that?

Dad I would suggest the same thing to you as I would for anyone in a situation where everything seems to have got to a standstill.

Look after yourself, get a life of your own, do things that you really enjoy, things that do not involve your DW.
You are right, your depression isn't due to your DW. It is due to the fact you expecting something from your marriage (emotional connection, sex) that you are not getting atm. (Not saying you shouldn't want to have those though)
By putting all the focus on what is lacking in your life, you are forgetting what you have and all the pleasure/happiness you can get from that.
I am sure that once you have found a place where you feel more stable and stronger, the right decision will come to you (accepting, leaving or whatever other solutions you can find).
I am guessing that talking about divorce feels like blackmail because your DW doesn't think you would do it so it is just a threat. Saying with conviction coming from the fact that *this IS the situation' she would probably react in a different way.

Have you though about having counselling for yourself?

Agree with KlickKlackknobsac, in amongst this thread I think my question got lost about when your wife stopped having sex with you.
It seems odd to me that she is happy about it one minute, and not the next.
For instance, and this is not going to sound nice about your wife, did she stop when she had got children with you
or did she stop when she thought you were perhaps doing too many of the chores and not being so manly[just asking,trying to find clues]
or did she stop when she had a new medical condition
or new pills
or or or

I agree wholeheartedly with NotSureICanCarryOn

Dad, you are expecting something from your life that has never been. You are continually hoping that one day it will change, when it never has done.

Sadly you have to look at your life today and realise that it's the best it is ever going to be in it's current format.

There is nothing that you appear to be doing wrong, as it goes there is nothing SHE is doing wrong (for her) but your lives are incompatible.

Eventually this feeling of being conned (and I totally get that, Once in a Lifetime by Talking Heads used to be on a permanent loop in my head when I was with my Ex) will turn to increasing resentment, bitterness and anger.

No-one deserves to live with someone that resents them. No-one should live with someone that makes them feel resentful.

This is YOUR life too, YOU get to make choices.
FWIW, it's a far more healthy model for your DC to see that everyone has a right to be happy, and that to stay together for the sake of the kids will do more harm than good.

I think you ought to look to a separation, you need space to think about what has happened, to find out who you are and to try to heal the damage that this rejection has done to your self esteem.

This is not (apparently) anything to do with you per se, these are issues your DW has. Either you can live with them or you can't.

Either way, both of you deserve to live in the way that makes you happiest.

Something my counsellor said to me has just popped into my head and it may help or may not but I would like to share:

"These are not your issues, they are her issues. You may be affected by them and you may have taken them on, carrying them as your own but you do not own these feelings. They are her issues and you need to see them as such"

Maybe trying to look at your situation in those terms would help you make a decision as to what you want and need to do. I think you need to put yourself first atm. You are striving all the time - to be a "modern man" to ensure she is supported, to do Relate to try and support your marriage, wanting to stay for the sake of your DC etc. Time to take a step back from all of that and focus on yourself.

Another thought has occured to me.Did your wife stop having sex with you beacuse she found out your were having an affair or sleeping with a prostitute,whilst still having sex with her.Sorry if this sounds a bit blunt.

Triffid hit the nail on the head for me. I also think that if your DW doesn't want sex & obviously you don't want to coerce her into it & you don't want to leave your family you need to get her permission for a fuck buddy. The website intimate encounters is for married people to find a lover. Not loads of one night stands, to find one person in a similar situation who needs some physical affection on a long term basis. Would she agree to that? If she won't give permission but also can't for some reason change how she feels about sex as a normal part of your relationship then you are left with no choice but to leave. It's a shame cos you will be the one punished by leaving your DCs too! What do you think?

Hi OP

I posted on a similar thread to this, about my own experience in my first marriage. I left that marriage 8 years ago. When I look back, it was hell. 7+years in a sexless marriage.

So many of the above posts have brilliant advice.

I can't say that you should leave your relationship, but for me it was hard but the best thing I could do. Within 6 months, my confidence had returned, I looked and felt better.

Personally, I wish I had left sooner, we might have even remained friends, we did get on in a platonic way, but eventually we bloody detested each other. For the sake of your children think about that. Living like this rots away at all other aspects of a relationship.

BTW - I think you PMed me at the time of my last post, I didn't feel comfortable responding. But no problem discussing it out in the open.

Be brave.

'If I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.'

But you're a 'modern man' because you look after your own children sometimes and, cook. So you just want her to have sex with you even though she doesn't have any interest in it and has never had an orgasm with you. Because it would improve your mood.

It's funny that, as another poster mentioned, you chose to marry this woman who had never orgasmed and wasn't bothered by sex when it was so important to you. It only became an issue when she stopped allowing you to experience sexual pleasure? It never bothered you that you were having sex with someone who took no pleasure from it?

Hi OP

Sorry if you've already mentioned this (I have read the whole thread but it is quite long!), but have you and DW discussed possible compromises? It's clear your sex drives will never be matched, but have you thought about whether there is a level of intimacy which would be OK (while not optimal) for both you and her? Eg once a week or once a fortnight? I realise that it's not very romantic to put it in those terms (would be nice to be a bit more spontaneous), but I wonder if at the moment, the problem seems, to her, insurmountable - she knows she will never want to have sex as often as you do - and having a realistic "target" would help her to see it as something achievable?

It seems to me that at the moment the options are "never" or "often" and there might be a middle ground somewhere.

Look OP, your relationship is over, that's the bottom line. Here's what you need to do. Firstly, start thinking about the logistics of going it alone (financial, access to the kids, where you'll live etc). Then say to her, either directly to her, or better still, in counselling:
'I want a sex life. I will not get one with you and even though I love you, I can't live that way and I want to separate. Because I still love and respect you, I want to do that in the best and most amicable way possible for the kids. Can you please let me know that you acknowledge this and will work with me on it.'

In other words, grow a pair! What the hell does she know about whether you'll be happy or not alone, is she a godam prophet or something? Start dictating the pace here!

And of course, human nature being what is, assuming you do move on with the minimum of fuss and say, meet someone else, suddenly she'll be all 'oh please come back, I badly want sex with you now'

Whether she has orgasms or not (you wouldn't know if she did tbh, she could be masturbating any amount on the sly), is moot - she doesn't want them with YOU.

I'm going to assume you're willing to put your money where your mouth is and that you're not just wallowing in it because you're a masochist... Just take the necessary steps and leave the relationship. You'll be dead long enough.

It seems as though all your happiness is hingeing on your wife changing to become a sexual person. If it hasn't happened so far and she shows no interest about wanting to change, then you are just beating your head against a brick wall.

Maybe there is another route to happiness for you, but I don't think it's going to be with your wife.

I do feel for you having been in a similar position, but in my case I had to leave as it was soul destroying wanting what I couldn't have with the person I wanted it with. Unless you can accept life with her as it is without it ever changing, then I think you have to leave for your own sake.

Narkedpuffin & others. From OP's other thread his DW did a good job of pretending to have a normal attitude to sex before they married & they had sex regularly so he did not sign up to this. He thought things would remain similar after they married. Ok she wasn't having screaming orgasms but she was content as was he.

i seriously doubt a woman who never has orgasms was ever sexually content.

"I really fucking hate this with Mumsnet. This guy has come here for some help. He doesn't necessarily express himself in the way that women do - what a fucking surprise that is. I'm so sick of starting to read a thread like this by a man and thinking, oh Christ, give it a minute and the man-haters will be all over you. He is a human being asking for help - could we not just be kind?"

HEAR HEAR. Men ARE NOT women. They express themselves differently from women, they are interested in different things, they are stressed in different ways, they use different solutions.

If you don't want to understand him, just remember that ancient old rule: if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

The op has said he is happy with posters posting their opinions, so in this instance,I think you dont have much to be concerned about.

Dad: Relate counsellors aren't that intensively trained IMO. I think you need to get a good therapist who will help you learn to define your needs and express them more clearly and forcefully. You might also find some interesting dynamics about distancing/persuing.

If your wife still stays defensive/not interested in your point of view, after you have really clearly expressed how much her love (and that means everything: her look, her affectionate touches, her desire) means to you, if she still stays remote and distant,

then I would say clearly that whilst you still love her very much and love your family, you would like her permission for an open marriage and you go and have your needs for closeness met somewhere else.

Secretly trying to 'solve' your unhappiness is the problem: being completely open about what you are going to do, might get her attention that you are, actually SERIOUS about all this. See persuer/distancer above.
She might be literally so disinterested, that she says yes! Let us know.

"if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." - isn't this an adults' site?

Should still apply to adults though Pan - tis manners really, isn't it? Although it's not usually applied in AIBU, that's for sure!

Damn, pressed post too soon - meant to add "and this is Relationships, not AIBU"