As a modern man I feel conned

[DadIsSad]

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

So she's never had an orgasm during sex with you, doesn't want to have sex with you and you're using emotional blackmail to try and get her to have sex with you?

Hmm NP that triggered something for me as well.

OP - you do appear to be 'banking' lots of resentment coins for yourself in this. And it will be a dreadful day when you choose to cash them in. Much better to close the account now and put your emotional and thought energies into looking at your personal boundaries and the level of expectations you have of other people in your life, and the best way of 'moving on' from this relationship which is so damaging with little realistic prospect of improving.

Sounds like your wife works, has DCs and housework (not disregarding your contribution) but her life might be full up. Does she have free time, does she have hobbies, does she have nice relaxed evenings watching her choice of tv and enjoying a glass of wine so that she goes to bed relaxed and possibly ready for sex? or is she constantly chasing her tail and mind full of work issues and DCs needs for next day at school?

Many people are like this and still enjoy sex but perhaps she is just too busy. If this is the problem can you make changes - get a cleaner for example?

You sound a bit whiney, OP, and being mopey will be a turn off imo. Maybe start looking for life outside your home, go to the gym, play tennis, then you will appear a busy, dynamic individual, enjoying life, rather than one feeling sorry for himself and perhaps more attractive to DW.

But if she really isn't interested in a sex life you will have to call it a day.

"unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions"

who described it as such? and what has the counsellor suggested you do?

I agree with BizzieLizzy's post on page 1. Being in this relationship is making you very unhappy indeed. If you don't think there is a chance of things improving then I would call it a day. And find somebody else you are more compatible with. People have to want to make it work. If one person doesn't then it's a complete waste of time.

DadisSad, firstly I'm sorry to hear that you're this low and that you and your wife are having these troubles.

I have a question for you which requires a bit of brutally honest soul-searching: what would your DW say about your listening skills and how well you understand her?

I ask this because I know of a handful of relationships where the wife has gone off sex with her husband, and in each situation it turned out that she felt he did not listen to her properly and didn't respond to a lot of her requests. He was typically blissfully unaware of this despite having discussed it with her on many occasions!

It's apparently quite common. With the couple I know well in this situation he was great around the house and with the kids, but seemed to have a mental block when she tried to approach him about any problems in their family life.

If your wife feels a lack of emotional nurturing in this way, that may explain why she doesn't want the closeness of sleeping with you.

Dad

I think the whole 'men want this, women want this' debate is extremely unhelpful at the best of times - and especially here.

I went out with a man for 6 years who had little interest in sex. It only happened once a month (always at my instigation). I would have liked it much more, but the lack of sex left me feeling deflated and unattractive (looking back, I was a gorgeous 20 something and it's a crying shame that thepopulationofLondonmore red-blooded males didn't get to help me extensively explore my sexuality).

The reason I'm bringing this up is that whenever I read a post about sex, it strikes me that those who don't have a healthy high sex drive, don't understand what it's like for those of us who do. Sex isn't a nice extra, it's integral and it hurts when it's missing. I'm not talking about a few months here and there when the kids are up all night or you are stressed - I'm talking about sex as a way of expressing yourself..love, intimacy, desire. Sex being fundamental to a relationship.

However, there are those people who would always rather read a book or have a cup of tea. Dad, you married one of those. I understand that the depressive mindset is not prone to action or reality (speaking from experience), but this is not going to change, no matter how much counselling you do. Sex for her will always be a chore.

You need to decide if you can live with that. Stop counselling. Stop thinking about 'modern women' and consider what the basic requirements are for you in a relationship. If they involve a loving sex life, you are in the wrong marriage.

Thanks 1950sHousewife - I was actually all set to leave this thread, as I felt the misunderstanding was getting too much (the flaming I can cope with it's too much effort to try and set everybody straight who's adding 2 and 2 and making 5). Thread title was only supposed to be a "soundbite" of something stupid going through my head, was kind of thinking I'd start another thread with a bit more detail. But there are some very helpful comments on here - particular thanks to RandomMess (there are others - yours just really hit the mark).

Yes I need to be more assertive - but then I find it hard enough as it is to bring up subjects I know DW doesn't want to talk about and will likely end in an argument, even without as RandomMess mentions the issue of depression making it so much easier to just do nothing. All those who suggest I'm afraid of dealing with this properly and bringing it all out are right - I arranged the Relate counselling, and have managed to say some things I've had bottled up for years, but clearly I've still held a little back. I suppose I really am at the "nothing to lose" stage now though. The thing is I don't want to leave - I do love my kids and would miss the family we have - I do love DW as well. The trouble is, the family is enough for DW - whenever asked what she wants from me it's always something related to that, not to us as a couple - it's not enough for me. It just feels horrible - the idea of me leaving came up yesterday, with DW suggesting it wouldn't make me happier, to which I agreed - at least not for a year or so, but I have to hope that it's possible to feel happier than I do now in the long term.

She's now gone to bed - we didn't talk, no physical contact (I'm trying poshbird1's suggestion of backing off, but in reality I know it won't get me anywhere), but it was too late to have this conversation, as I'd been busy trying to get a bit of DIY finished off (the astute will probably suggest I'm putting it off). In reality this is actually one of those threads where eventually somebody will point out that the OP already knows the answer though, isn't it? :(

A few specific things which have come up:
My mental health might not be DW's responsibility (in the same way my happiness isn't), but if I suggested my depression was largely due to any other factor I'd be lying. What exactly am I supposed to say? It's not something I'm just making up as an emotional blackmail tactic (though I don't know why I'm even dignifying that comment with a response) - I think I've got a fairly good understanding of my own moods, if not any control over them, and no I'm not getting any satisfaction out of this situation. Elsewhere on this thread everybody is telling me I need to be brutally honest...

JosieZ - DW has a hobby, out 1 or 2 nights a week doing that. We often sit in front of TV with a glass of wine (our viewing choices largely coincide). I'm very sporty and have lots going on outside the house - I'm sure anybody who met me in real life would think I was very dynamic - she actually mentioned yesterday that was one of the things she found (past tense deliberate) attractive about me. I'm not always depressed, though it doesn't seem to make a huge difference to how attractive I am. As others have identified, she's either just not interested in sex or not interested in me (I suspect both).

DuelingFanjo - DW described it as an ultimatum, she sees the suggestion that I might leave as blackmail, when for me it's just trying to be honest. The counsellor actually also suggested our relationship wouldn't survive in one of the sessions - though hasn't given any suggestions about what we (I) should do. We've not really had that many sessions, and probably not got to the conclusions stage, though whilst I'd have liked to keep going I have to admit it didn't seem like we were making much progress in them any more.

Oh, and the orgasm thing - that's not just during sex with me, that's never in any way. As discussed in a previous thread, I'd really like to be able to give her one, but when she's never masturbated and doesn't seem comfortable whenever I try doing anything which might help in that way (from my limited knowledge of such things, so maybe I'm just doing it all wrong - but then I don't get any other suggestions).

Sorry to hear that things haven't improved any for you DadIsSad. I remember your last thread as well - and now I want to ask you a question (as others have asked it as well):

If this sexless situation continues, do you want to stay married to your DW? Do you love her enough to live without sex in the marriage or not? because if sex is too important to you to live without (and that's not a judgement) then you need to consider leaving this marriage.

X-posted with Triffiddealer - reading that just makes me sad again, because I think you've summed it up perfectly, particularly the last couple of paras.

I will try not to wallow in any more self-pity, but just indulge myself one more time - it just doesn't seem fair, the only thing I can do to improve my situation will completely change the lives of two lovely little kids who love both mummy and daddy :(

Do you love her enough to live without sex in the marriage or not?

Probably not :( I might love the kids enough though - which probably says it all.

There is another option, you know - but I don't think it's generally approved of except by SGB and people like her - how would your wife feel if you sought sexual contact outside the marriage? would she accept that? Would you even want that?

It just seems to me (as a person with a very low sex drive and very aware that it's not great for my DH either) that it's kind of unfair to both deny you sex with your marriage partner AND to refuse to allow it any other place. DH has said to me that he wouldn't go elsewhere, and we do still have sex despite it being not my top choice of activity! - but have you asked your wife how she would feel about it?

OK OP, it still boils down to the same choice. You have three options and no more. Option 1 - accept the status quo, live with your wife and don't have any sex, because she doesn't want to.
Option 2 - Get divorced.

Option 3 - Seek sex outside the marriage. You haven't mentioned that option and whether or not you think it would be acceptable to your wife - or whetherit would be acceptable to you to do so and not tell her. TBH someone who expects his/her partner to accept celibacy when the partner doesn't want to, and has an active libido, has forfeited the right to insist on monogamy - if you don't want to play with that toy, don't tantrum when someone else does.

DadIsSad, forgive me if I've missed something here, but I'm struggling to find any statements where you've outlined the problems that you bring to the relationship. IIRC it seems so far that you've only talked about problems brought about, directly or indirectly, by her.

at xposting with SGB!

Maya he did that in a previous thread, to be fair.

Hey thumbs! back!

Fair 'nuff. As you were!

Sorry to hear your situation is so unhopeful.
I arranged the Relate counselling, and have managed to say some things I've had bottled up for years, but clearly I've still held a little back
I'm surprised you have 'held back' despite you thinking of leaving your marriage though probably you don't feel they would make a big difference to things.
I would start looking for somewhere to move to, start looking at finances and whatever else needs sorting out for you to leave. DW seems impersonal over the problems, perhaps this will trigger more response.
Or you can aim to start an affair, I suppose.
Must admit that I didn't enjoy sex very often in the early years of marriage (babies etc) but managed to show enough enthusiasm to please DH (thank goodness it's fine now )

I didn't suggest you were 'making it up' I said you were using it as emotional blackmail by suggesting that she should do what you want to improve your mood! Your response speaks volumes. You can't see that what you're doing is totally unfair to your wife and assumed that I was must be accusing you of faking!

'My mental health might not be DW's responsibility (in the same way my happiness isn't), but if I suggested my depression was largely due to any other factor I'd be lying'

So your depression is because she's not acting the way you want her to? I think you need to get some individual help, never mind Relate. You are acting as though it's her responsibility. It's not.

Thanks, Thumbwitch - was just thinking I was going to have to write down my numerous faults again. The thing is, I've become convinced that whatever I do to address those isn't going to make the slightest difference when DW simply isn't interested in sex (can't remember if I've mentioned it before - in one of our sessions she said she wouldn't be that bothered if she never had sex again).

As tempting as the idea of an affair is, I reckon there's more chance of us going at it several times a night than that happening - it's not as if I'm exactly fighting them off. Or are you suggesting affair via internet dating?

NP - how about answering the question I put? What exactly am I supposed to say? Not mention that I'm depressed (as if it wasn't obvious)? Lie about why I'm depressed? Are you suggesting that I'm using it as an attempt to coerce her into having sex with me when she doesn't want to? (I'm not) Or do you not believe that's why I'm depressed?

You're putting responsibility for your happiness onto her. She doesn't owe it to you to make you happy, sleep with you or stay in a relationship with you. If you're unhappy it's up to you to change your life rather than sulk about how she won't be the wife you want and you can't have companionship and sex from her.

Depression is a serious illness. Part of learning to live with it and, hopefully, recover from it is accepting that you are ultimately responsible for your mental wellbeing. If you're unhappy then you need to accept that this isn't working and move out.

'I'd really like to be able to give her one, but when she's never masturbated and doesn't seem comfortable whenever I try doing anything which might help in that way (from my limited knowledge of such things, so maybe I'm just doing it all wrong - but then I don't get any other suggestions).'

Why do you have limited knowledge of what might make your wife have an orgasm when you know she has never had one and the fact that she doesn't want to have sex with you seems to be the foundation of your problems? As someone said upthread, would you find anything enticing about sex if you never had one? When you first became aware that there were thing that made her uncomfortable what did you do about it besides backing off and not doing them? Did you talk with her? If yes, did it comes across as pressure on her to have an orgasm? If no, why didn't you talk with her? (I know she should have talked with you herself, but this thread is about you and your part in this)

I think you need to forget about Relate, bite the bullet, and go to sex counselling. If she won't, then you have a decision to make; you could divorce and leave, or you could decide together that you would find someone else and remain under the same roof, friends and co-parents (an open relationship).

To be blunt, the two of you sound as if you are complete strangers in the sexual area. It takes two to communicate effectively, however, and clearly one or other of you or maybe both of you are having real problems in this area too. You seem genuinely baffled as to what she is feeling, or thinking, how she feels about you -- you seem so far apart...

What do you know of her childhood? Relatives? Religious or cultural background? Family history?

.....

I think what people here are suggesting is that you are responsible for maintaining your own equilibrium and that it is not fair to her to suggest that she could affect your depression for the better if she would change her mind about sex. It's not really possible to say what triggers clinical depression, which is a complex bio-chemical and emotional phenomenon.

sorry still catching up so will probably post again but:

your depression, imo, isn't because you're not having sex. it is because you are not facing a truth and doing what you need to do to move on in your life. i personally believe that is often what depression is, a sort of layby that you end up in when you refuse to take the next leg of the journey. you and your wife are not compatible, your needs/wants are very different and she is either asexual or not attracted to you.

you chose to marry and have a family with someone who has never orgasmed and therefore really enjoyed sex despite the fact that sex is important to you. you thought you could live with it presumably and have discovered you can't. but you don't want to leave so you're in the place of no win, no progress, head in sand ergo you are depressed. in a way it's basic maths. if you were a soul/psyche/subconscious deprived of a way forward despite being in an unhappy, unfulfilling place what would you do? you wouldn't thrive and bring joy to the body/consciousness you're trapped in.

if we are physically hurt with an injury that needs attention our body has the handy system of signalling pain so we can't ignore the injury and will pay it attention. if our soul/psyche/unconscious (whatever your beliefs) is injured it'll do the same.

i'm not a man-hater btw - i get just as irked by the stupid stereotypes about men and what they want believe me - i believe we're human beings not a collection of cliches based on the genitals we were born with. my advice to you was what you already know - if you can't live with it you have to leave. depression, showing sadness, emotional blackmail (for the cynical) are not going to achieve what communication, cooperation and therapy have failed to achieve.

you are ignoring what you know to be true - imo that makes us ill. some become depressed, some become angry and bitter and nasty, some become martyrs who make everyone's life a misery around them. the wise face facts and move on for everyone's sake.

OP - it sounds as if you and your wife have no couple relationship at all - you are just sniping housemates, by the sound of it, though you would like (and are able) to have a long-term emotional and sexual relationship and she may not be able to at all.

You should probably look for someone else.

Apologies if you're not, but you're not the man who posted on here recently about sleeping with prostitutes are you?

I am curious as to why your wife has never had an orgasm? Have you ever tried to give her one, or do you just look after yourself? I didn't have an orgasm for a long time in my earlier relationships, but then I met a man who wasn't a selfish lover, he managed it, and I then went on to be able to orgasm with all my subsequent partners. And fwiw I never had problems giving myself one, so it was their fault, not mine. Not saying necessarily that is true in your case, just saying that wasn't experience. And if you're a fan of reading women's glossies you'll also realise that they stress the importance of sexual equality and finding a non-selfish make lover that doesn't expect you to lie back and think of England while he sorts himself out.