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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

As a modern man I feel conned

428 replies

DadIsSad · 26/05/2012 15:08

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

OP posts:
mouldyironingboard · 28/05/2012 13:29

Hi DadisSad

Your situation sounds very much like my first marriage. My ex used to spend most of his free time away from me and our (then) very young DC on sporting activities. I became resentful and it began to affect our physical relationship. I was also exhausted looking after the DC and working. We went to relate but nothing changed as I felt that I could never be intimate with him again. We ended up getting divorced but remaining good friends.

Some years later, I met my lovely DH and we can't keep our hands off each other even after a few years (sorry if tmi!). My ex also remarried and our DC adore their stepmum and stepdad.

Life is too short to spend in a loveless marriage and sometimes you have to accept that it's time to move on. You and your DW can both be fantastic parents even if you live apart.

orangeandlemons · 28/05/2012 13:34

Oh God, i daren't even write this.....when I talk to friends of similar age to me (mid 40's) none of them have much interest in sex(or so they say) and neither do I. Nearly all of them have said they wouldn't care if it disappeared of the agenda for ever.

However, I do it for love, for dp, and when I actuallyget down to it, I enjoy it. But it isn't that important to me.

Can you dw not connect just for love's sake?

amillionyears · 28/05/2012 13:39

This is my take on your marriage
You have depression
This makes is difficult for you to see the wood from the trees

Your wife never was very interested in sex for whatever reason
It did not bother you too much initially
You had 2 children
She wanted sex even less,again for whatever reason
You went and did what you did
You are not happy about the situation
You may or may not have counselling which may or may not help

Problem is in all this that she does seem happy with the status quo
And I think it is going to take a big event for her to change her mind,assuming she wants to.

I dont agree with all that oikopolis said,but I think she is right in saying you are afraid to do anything.
You say that whatever path you take will result in a lot more unhappiness.
Doesnt sound like you can be that much more unhappy than what you are now.
And I cant think that your DW is actually very happy at all.
And all this must be having an effect on the children.

I dont think things should stay as they are.
Options
1.You threaten to leave.You may have already done this,but Im guessing not.

Now that I have written it,I find I cant actually think of any other options.
If I were you I would threaten to leave,and mean it.It may have the desired effect.She may decide she wants to change her behaviour or she may not.Obviously that is up to her,but you have choices as well with your life.
I agree that your depression is probably the result of what has been happening.
Up to you what you do about the sport.

molly3478 · 28/05/2012 13:44

Ime if she orgasms she will want loads of sex regardless of kids, age, busy life etc if she doesnt she wont . Thats from my friends experiences and makes sense really. However its been 6 years now so it doesnt seem like she will change.

higgle · 28/05/2012 13:50

I think you should stop paying money for counselling, Relate etc and simply ask her if she willhave sex with you again. If not you have 3 options, stay in relationship without sex, leave, or explain that you need to look elsewhere for sexual satisfaction.

Before you embark on any relationship with another woman either now or after you split up you really should look at how a woman can repeatedly have sex with you and you have not been concerned about her lack of orgasm. It is your responsibility in a relationship to work together for the maximum amount of sexual satisfaction all round, and for lots of us that involves certain positions, certain timescales, co ordinated wriggling, talking etc. etc
Can't understand how you could have neglected to address this side of things years ago.

Helltotheno · 28/05/2012 14:00

Ime if she orgasms she will want loads of sex

Not true. Lots of people who don't have much sex with their partners orgasm regularly themselves. There's a difference between a DIY job and doing it with someone else.

I wouldn't be surprised if OP's partner orgasms herself regularly.

expatinscotland · 28/05/2012 14:00

Threats have no place in a good relationship, tbh.

You were fundamentally mismatched sexually and now the situation has become intolerable.

That's the bottom line.

She doesn't want to have sex with you, for whatever reason, so you either move on or agree on a way for you both to be happy sexually in the marriage (i.e., you get sex elsewhere).

molly3478 · 28/05/2012 14:02

helltothemo - sorry I meant orgasms everytime with their dh will make them want lots of sex, and if they dont they wont. I didnt used to orgasm everytime with my ex and didnt want it that much with him, whereas with dh I do so I want sex all the time.

swallowedAfly · 28/05/2012 14:06

it is simple really isn't it - enjoyment is motivation, no enjoyment means no motivation. and if in all the years they've been married she's never enjoyed the sex then she knows it isn't changing and imagine how awkward and bleurgh it would be trying to change it. she doesn't want it.

there is no 'he wants her to want it' option here - she doesn't want it, she's made that clear and that's her right. the only options here are what the OP can do in response to this. she's not budging and anything aimed at making her budge is dubious as hell imo.

Helltotheno · 28/05/2012 14:12

sorry I meant orgasms everytime with their dh

Oh right, my bad :( yes of course, what's not to want in that case Grin

mouldyironingboard · 28/05/2012 14:47

I'm sure your relate counsellor suggested this, but do you and your DW spend time together as a couple? If she resents the amount of time you are carrying out sporting activities, is it possible for you to cut down? Perhaps she doesn't like you being distracted during times when most families are together.

What was your DW's upbringing like? Were her parents cold and distant? Could she be afraid of getting pregnant again?

If I'm honest, I don't think lack of intimacy is the cause of your relationship troubles, it's a symptom of them.

DuelingFanjo · 28/05/2012 15:10

Do you think she planned to have sex with you just so she could get pregnant? Beause 4 times in 6 years = 2 kids is a pretty good hit rate as far as her fertility goes.

neverquitesure · 28/05/2012 15:23

Three times in six years Shock

I really, really, really cannot see anyway that this can get better. I think you have done all you can. There is nothing further that you can (ethically) do to make her want sex with you and it is not reasonable to expect you to live without it. Plus it sounds like you are also missing out on intimacy (not saying you can't have have intimacy without sex, just reflecting back to things OP said earlier on this thread). It is not surprising you feel so low. Everyone deserves to feel loved.

As an aside, I also wouldn't be surprised if she orgasms on her own and is afraid to tell you for fear of hurting your feelings and/or you leaving her. Why buy a vibrator and not use it? Has it been replaced in it's packaging? It's all irrelevant anyway I suppose. I think your positions have now become entrenched. I feel so sorry for her but I really do believe ending the relationship would be a kindness for her too. Just a stranger's opinion of course.

mathanxiety · 28/05/2012 16:02

A few things you said struck me from your last two posts.

You are very goal oriented.

You haven't mentioned your depression to people you know, including your sister, and you seem to be afraid she would 'dig' around too much if you were to tell her.

And there is also the continuing description of a relationship where you didn't communicate with your wife but rather hoped things would improve or work themselves out..

You seem to be at once afraid and excited about the idea of people knowing you, even down to who you might be IRL.

You need to learn from your counselling why you are afraid to open up to people and tell them about yourself, express your needs. You will never achieve emotional intimacy with another person unless you lose the fear of rejection or whatever it is that you seem to have. That fear of putting your needs out there and fear of confronting issues has perhaps already cost you your marriage. You need to come to grips with it.

Jux · 28/05/2012 16:36

I think SGB gave you the 3 options. I'm not sure there's any other way.

Are you on ads? What are you doing about your depression?

amillionyears · 28/05/2012 16:44

The problem for him is that he would rather the status quo than doing anything other than counselling,[which most posters on here think will not change his wifes mind].
He would rather be in this DadIsSad situation than change things himself.

And she wont change without a very big change in situation.

olgaga · 28/05/2012 16:50

For goodness sake - leave. Just don't expect your problems to go away because you leave her!

Hers will though.

DadIsSad · 28/05/2012 16:54

He would rather be in this DadIsSad situation than change things himself.

That's not true. The idea makes me very scared and unhappy, but it's something I'm seriously contemplating and thinking about the practicalities of. I'm just trying to get my head sorted and work out what my options actually are - just the practicalities seem horrendously difficult at the moment given how much childcare I do.

A lot of the things people are saying are very true though - I do find it difficult to open up to people and express my needs, I am very afraid of rejection. The trouble is, I think DW is even worse than me - at least in Relate I was trying to give answers to how I felt, from her there were lots of "don't knows". If she was actually happy to talk about these things it would be a huge amount less difficult.

OP posts:
swallowedAfly · 28/05/2012 16:59

you know what your options are:

-1 - try to blackmail your wife to have unwanted sex with you via threatening to leave (she won't believe you though and who on earth would want sex with someone who didn't want it and was had to be threatened into it)

-2 - leave and get on with your life.

-3 - stay and accept she doesn't want sex with you and either put up with it or seek sex elsewhere.

there aren't any other options. there's no magic box no.10 that you're suddenly going to stumble over.

mind you there is option 4 - wallow in it, become a miserable sad faced martyr sulking in the corner hoping she'll give in and shag you out of pity or guilt (bleurgh) and play the helpless victim poor me poster on mn every couple of weeks.

DadIsSad · 28/05/2012 16:59

...oh and it's not the depression I'm afraid of telling my sister about - I'm fairly sure she already knows, just not the reasons for it. Yes I'm on ADs - have been for about 3 months. Probably should have gone on them ages ago, apart from the fact I'm not sure how much good they're doing me. Like a lot of people I'm ashamed of being depressed - not that I really have many (any) friends close enough to tell, unless I'm going to go round telling all my acquaintances.

OP posts:
swallowedAfly · 28/05/2012 17:02

ok, you're depressed, you have no friends and can't even confide in your sister. no sex really is the least of your worries and to lay all the blame on your wife not shagging you for your depression is ridiculous.

DadIsSad · 28/05/2012 17:04

..and in reference to my wife's contentment with sex, she always told me she was. I'm pretty sexually inexperienced (probably not surprising given all my other personality traits, and how I'm clearly a completely shit lover), so the only excuse I have is that I just didn't know better. I really am fairly convinced she never masturbates though, so asexual rather than anything else.

OP posts:
swallowedAfly · 28/05/2012 17:06

ok really blunt warning on this one:

you're sitting around depressed, sulking, waiting to see if she'll come and touch you or notice you're unhappy. you have no friends and no intimate relations with a single other human being. this is hardly attractive is it? a turn on?

you also blame everything on her and her not wanting to have sex with you. again really unattractive and unreasonable imo.

add the fact you have never made this woman orgasm and didn't see her never coming as a problem - in your mind your sex life was fine and i'm afraid i conclude that you have much bigger issues than your wife not wanting sex.

you need to get personal therapy.

first and foremost you are a father. do you really want this role model for your kids? forget about sex and deal with your obvious issues.

DuelingFanjo · 28/05/2012 17:07

Do you think she planned to have sex with you just so she could get pregnant? Beause 4 times in 6 years = 2 kids is a pretty good hit rate as far as her fertility goes.

expatinscotland · 28/05/2012 17:08

Look, you married her knowing she wasn't that into sex. So again, your options are stay and put up with it, leave or seek sex elsewhere. No threats. Think really hard and if you want to seek sex elsewhere, then come clean about it and see what she think. She might not be bothered at all. Some people aren't.

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