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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

As a modern man I feel conned

428 replies

DadIsSad · 26/05/2012 15:08

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 26/05/2012 21:29

I really she doesn't want to address the real problem to tbh despite it saddening me you seriously need to consider that a future life without her as a wife may be the only way forward for you to be happy.

I have recently been through a very difficult time in my marriage - so I don't say that lightly at all Sad

foxxxyblonde · 26/05/2012 21:54

You poor thing, I agree with the non man haters that have given proper advice rather than flaming you on this thread...maybe it's time to think about ending this misery for a relationship and spread your wings. You will probably be both happier for it. If she does have some genuine issues then the only person that can fix her, is herself.

joblot · 26/05/2012 21:59

Dadsnet? Or similar advice forum? Why here?.

RandomMess · 26/05/2012 22:04

Because it's relationships, because he wants to see what other women think as well as other men?

Perhaps he wants to know if other women who have a few young children still want to have sex with their spouse/partner?

midwife99 · 26/05/2012 22:11

Oh Dad sorry to hear counselling has not helped. If my DH sobbed during counselling saying he felt unattractive because I don't want him I'd be doing everything I could to reassure him. I'd be hugging him & saying sorry. I think you need to accept that she will never understand that affection & sex are essential parts of a normal relationship. If that means you need to end it that is perfectly reasonable.

howdoo · 26/05/2012 22:16

"Cut the crap about modern women Vs cave women it makes you sound terrible really. I know you are angry but slagging off modern women's role and saying you would be better off just taking what you want makes you sound like an arsehole frankly."

"your problem is with your wife not woman kind conning you ffs. i found that really offensive
incidentally we all post on here too does that make us 'enlightened'? "

I really fucking hate this with Mumsnet. This guy has come here for some help. He doesn't necessarily express himself in the way that women do - what a fucking surprise that is. I'm so sick of starting to read a thread like this by a man and thinking, oh Christ, give it a minute and the man-haters will be all over you. He is a human being asking for help - could we not just be kind?

midwife99 · 26/05/2012 22:18

I agree howdo Angry

joblot · 26/05/2012 22:40

Nope not man haters, just realists

foxxxyblonde · 26/05/2012 22:42

Well said Howdoo!! This place is crawling with them, time they fecked off back to their bottle of lambrini & vibrators if they can't give some constructive advice!!

howdoo · 26/05/2012 22:45

How so, JobLot?

Genuine question - what did DadIs say that justifies the "arsehole" etc. comments?

FanjoPingpong · 26/05/2012 22:45

Women aren't machines you put favours into until they put out sex. Hmm

It's frustrating, but it doesn't matter how much effort you put in - if she isn't into you, if she doesn't enjoy sex or physical affection then there's nothing you can do about it. Either: get physical affection elsewhere, or leave her.

RandomMess · 26/05/2012 22:53

Fanjo I don't think anyone is saying that what his DW is saying is that her feelings/wants/desires for a physical relationship are normal and he isn't for wanting something else. At least that is how it reads to me.

If my dh didn't pull his weight as a parent and partner I would be pissed off, resentful and not want to have meaningful sex with him.

Fortunately he does pull his weight so the times when I haven't wanted to have sex with him are all about something else and when we've been brave enough to talk about it we've sorted out the issues that have come between us.

foxxxyblonde · 26/05/2012 23:00

passes Fanjo the lambrini & vibrator

ChooChooLaverne · 26/05/2012 23:01

"it's hard to love someone when they have problems loving themselves. i'm sorry to be harsh like that, but i might try not being quite so 'needy'."

Think this is a bit more than harsh - can't imagine you'd be saying this if the OP was a woman complaining that her H was rejecting her sexually.

I don't think the OP has helped with all this modern women stuff, but still. It is devastating when your partner doesn't want to have sex with you (or wants to use it as an excuse to control you).

OP, I think you have to be brutally honest with her - tell her exactly how you feel and what you want and try and get her to do the same. If your responses are miles apart then you probably have to face the fact that it's never going to work. But at least you'll know for sure and can make plans for a life apart if needs be.

lowestpriority · 26/05/2012 23:10

Tell her if she does not want to have a physical relationship with you, then you will have one with someone else.

joblot · 26/05/2012 23:16

The thread title alone. Feels like a 'look at poor me, a man, hard done to'. On a forum called mn. Like me posting on moneysavingexpert saying 'rich person diddled, help me'. If that makes sense. Just makes me suspicious, like the ring thread, like there's another agenda. I like straight talking. Main reason I like mn actually

DadIsSad · 26/05/2012 23:17

More to say in a little when I have more time, but just wanted to pop in to say that I'm not at all offended by the negative comments from the "man haters" - not that I think they are. TBH some of the comments are quite reasonable given how I expressed myself, but I made a conscious decision to say it straight how I was feeling rather than moderate for a (mostly) female audience - I knew what sort of reaction it was likely to get. Honest reactions are in a way quite helpful, as you're saying it as you feel, just as I was. Please don't derail this thread with an argument between those who think I'm an arsehole and those who don't - I'd be upset if any of you thought I was one if you met me in real life, but it washes over me on here.

joblot - it's on here as I fancied getting more than a couple of replies a day, and as mentioned a woman's perspective is quite useful.

OP posts:
DuelingFanjo · 26/05/2012 23:19

how did you end up getting married if the sex was so bad yet so important?

ChooChooLaverne · 26/05/2012 23:28

I'd stop reading the women's magazines - they're not a guide to life you know.

You may feel your depression is related to how sexual your wife is being but your mental health isn't your wife's responsibility.

I do sympathise with your predicament but I think you'd find out whether you've got anything to salvage by talking to your wife and if you think sexual counselling is the way to go you've got to talk to her about it.

RandomMess · 26/05/2012 23:31

joblot DadIsSad has been posting about the situation for a long time so I suppose some of us are aware that he is genuinely posting about his situation and how it is affecting him.

All I can say is that it's taken a couple of years before I could get my spouse to address the problems between us, I have been at the point if he wouldn't start to address the REAL issues then it would have been over. We may have lived together and co-parented but beyond that it would have been over IYSWIM.

Thankfully for whatever reason we are now starting to try and address the real issues on both sides with honesty - hard but worth it. I think tbh I did issue ultimatums - pointing out there was no "us" anymore, emotionally we had become 2 islands and although our sexual relationship had continued (I like and enjoy sex with him even tho I don't initiate it as that's never really worked for me) it was different and on an emotional level it didn't work IYSWIM.

Anyhow back to the original op - you either need to talk about the REAL issue in honest and frank terms and then decide where to go from there or call it quits IMHO. I also want to add that I was warned off using a relate counsellor and told to ring around and find an experienced pyscotherapist and talk to them about what we wanted to achieve - fortunately we ended up with one recommend to us and she is good at helping us address/face/talk about the real issues.

Pan · 26/05/2012 23:44

fwiw - I think ChooChoo is exactly right - your mental health isn't your wife's responsibility - you may feel she is 'inviting' you to feel bad, in an area you have deemed important, not one she has deemed to be so.
I recall your other thread, and it's very sad that the situation is continuing. But that was going to be utterly inevitable, as night follows day.

I am wondering a little bit if.....you are actually getting a fair dollop of satisfaction out of this situation? A bit harsh perhaps, but you do seem to be investing in the 'poor me' position quite a lot, rather than exploring what it is that will contribute to your happiness. Feeling aggrieved and disappointed takes a fair bit of energy and brings it's own fulfillment.

howdoo · 26/05/2012 23:47

Thanks JobLot - understand much better and agree with your post re thread title!
DadIs, I'm so sorry and not a relationship expert, but it sounds like you need to move on. You could be with someone who loves you AND finds you attractive!

RandomMess · 26/05/2012 23:49

Oh and as someone who suffers from depression, it is easier to wallow than to be decisive and make difficult choices.

Pan · 26/05/2012 23:50

sorry, but also the 'modern man feeling conned' doesn't work, at all. 'Modern men' (whosoever they actually are) don't get first dibs at happiness because they have fulfilled a social criterion. Your chances in love has nothing to do with your social self-definition.

Feeling conned is a specious attitude to adopt, and will get you nowhere with the next love in your life either.

1950sHousewife · 26/05/2012 23:57

DadIsSad

Don't ignore people who are flaming you, but please, ignore those who are pettily picking up on some of your awkward turns of phrases. I've noticed on Mumsnet sometimes there is outright glee in picking apart things people have said. I've done it myself, much to my embarrassment (with retrospect)

I think your relationship is, unfortunately, like an incredible amount of relationships I know. People just don't admit it openly. It's probably why affairs are so common, probably more common than we'd all like to think.

I have friends with the most gorgeous husbands - husbands who help with the home and kids, work and are lovely people - but who roll their eyes at the idea of having to have sex with them. 'It' - the chemistry, the desire was obviously there at the beginning, but has totally gone now.

I think you need to be more assertive in the sexual counselling side of things. It really may be that your wife has totally gone off sex, which I wouldn't be surprised about, or has gone off you. You need to work out which one it is. Then you need to decide if it's something you can live with.