As a modern man I feel conned

[DadIsSad]

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

Duelling is absolutely right. He is pointedly refusing to give any information or answer questions so it seems to be he just wants "there there, she's a big meanie who should just put out".

but larry he's not couching it in sex - he's asking for sex, expecting her to make an effort and have sex with him. it's not some vague thing he's asking her for - it's access to her body. so she's not 'rationing it out' as if it was some vague concept - we're talking about letting him penetrate here not biscuits she's meanly keeping all to herself.

and in trying to say why she doesn't want to she's told him she's not attracted to him - i can imagine if pushed and pushed and pushed as to why you don't want to have sex with someone (even though she did a few weeks ago to 'make an effort') you'd have to admit that eventually - they're in therapy to be honest aren't they?

and reality is she isn't deceiving anyone she's being honest about what she wants - she is perfectly happy to remain married and a living together family despite not being attracted to him or wanting a sexual relationship (though she's willing to try on that front).

i don't see how she's being deceptive or manipulative - she's laid her cards completely on the table. it's up to him to then respond by playing his own. she's said what she wants - he has to decide then if he can live with that or if he can't. if he can't then he needs to end the relationship.

I'm not surprised there's no more attraction on her part, because having looked at all these threads it's always all about you and getting sex. You blame her for everything that's wrong - no sex, she's not making you feel attractive, she's responsible for your depression and moods (because she's not letting you have sex on her), etc etc.

Honestly, you need counselling to get some self-esteem.

But definitely, leave the relationship. Both of you sound as if you'll be far better off for it.

His mentality is ... she is married to me, we should be having sex with me, I'm not too interested in why she's not attracted to me, well I sort of am ... but the driving reason is cos I want her to have sex with me. Yes I'll do some housework and some childcare as we 'modern men' do but it would be much better if she just got on with the sex element. Gosh, things were so much easier in the cavemen days.

i do think she's being utterly clear and honest to the point of being able to be accused of being cruel.

the trouble is that the OP won't accept what she's saying and take the action of making his own decision. he refuses to make a decision and act. he sulks and emotionally blackmails and scrambles for strategies to try and make her do/feel/be what he wants rather than accept reality.

this really is dead simple. she doesn't find you attractive and doesn't want to have sex with you. that is all. either you accept that and stay married to a woman who doesn't want sex with you or you move on. you don't keep trying to twist things around into a scenario where you get sex from her or intimacy that she doesn't feel for you.

from what you have told us about your wife, she had an issue with your clutter (previous threads) which you were going to address - have you? She is not attracted to you - tiredness, clutter, mess and not pulling your weight over several years is cited. Have you made consistant and permenent efforts in these areas? She does not like it when you try to keep going when you are unable to climax. Canh she be sure that you will not do this?

Daddisad, I'm not sure if you're referring to me? You do still sound like a lovely guy but my God some-one needs to pick you up and give you a good shake! People have clearly spelled out in minute detail that your marriage is about control and not love in the intimacy dept and when I started to realise you were talking about the same issue with a few more details revealed, this time, I was surprised after you said you just weren't ready to face the truth the last time.

I can't take away your life experience and equally you can't take away mine, which qualifies me and every other MNetter to an opinion. Believe me, from the shit end of life that I see every-day where people lose the most precious thing to them I can say LIFE IS SHORT as would every-one else in my profession. I tend to make tough decisions fast from a place of good self esteem. Thats why I can't understand why you just can't get on with what you need to do. It's because life means something a little bit different to me and we must try to not hurt the people in it.

Im pretty sure it was me who signed off with "Excellent" etc. I was being ironic and holding my hands up in the air for you. Looking back, that may not have been constructive.

I don't know how you really feel and you need to listen to advice that strikes a chord with you. All I can say is, I apologise for making light of something which is obviously hard for you.

'everybody seems to think it's just the sex I'm after - it's actually the lack of intimacy after we've had sex which is bothering me.'

DadisSad, you really are making it all about sex. Craving intimacy related to sex is still using sex first and foremost as a barometer of your relationship.
Is it possible that your wife will not have sex/be physically intimate with someone who has been basically breezing in and out of the family home in between working away and working out and competing in his sport, and who is on an emotional level unable to be open enough with even his sister about his depression?

You are seeing sex as the most important signifier that things are ok in your relationship and that she loves you, whereas your wife has apparently been telling you that involvement in her life with the children and around the house is what she wants and maybe you should infer from that that she wants to connect with you emotionally, to feel that you trust her with your feelings and vulnerability.

I can see from this thread how much you feel you have been smacked in the face when she expressed rejection of you at Relate, but since you couched your thoughts about sex to her the way you did maybe it is possible that she is trying to stop you from thinking that just because there is sex everything is rosy. The fact that you are reeling from her response -- it is partly due to the importance you attach to sex and to being sexually attractive to her, but I suspect it is also partly because you have not expressed your needs, shown vulnerability. You interpreted her craving for partnership around the house as a carrot dangled in front of you and you persistently tell us here that sex is what you want, sex is how you measure the health of the relationship. It seems to me that your wife is telling you that there can't be sex without emotional and domestic partnership.

What has driven the two of you so far apart, emotionally?
Do you let her 'know' you?
Have you used winning in sport as a way to hide from feelings of inadequacy you may have had?
Have you used your relationship as a way to impress family or colleagues or neighbours with how successful you are at Relationships? (you have mentioned a few times how you think it looks from the outside)
Is your wife trying to connect with you on an emotional level and even purely on a 'time spent together at home and with the children' level in order to try to get inside your clamped shut emotions? Is she rightly telling you that there is more to intimacy than sex?

Sorry, kind of scattered...

DadIsSad,your post of 16.26,it starts with my name,then I got confused.
Are you saying i have had a complete change in attitude?
As far as I know,I wasnt on your last thread,havent seen it as far as I can remember.
Do you want me to read it?

I?ve been following this thread as I?m in a similar position to you OP but probably 3 or 4 months advanced and I?d like to say that I think you need some extra time to process the ?not attractive? revelation and to give yourself a pass for asking a fresh raft of questions based on this.

Our sex life/intimacy never recovered after we started our family 8 years ago. We?ve been together 14 years and we had relate counselling last year

My DW told me earlier this year that there had never been a physical spark for me (from her) and she?d opted for our life together largely because I?d made her feel well looked after. I was reeling for a couple of months with my brain in overdrive thinking back to the early days (I think i took it for granted that my DP found me attractive from the outset as we had a typical first flush of courtship love life). I went back over all the history and questioned everything from top to bottom.

Once you?ve had time to do similarly hopefully you?ll see that there is no bad faith but there are just different ways of expressing love involved (and lack of comunication). I can clearly see now that my DW has always struggled to express her affection through words or physically (unless tipsy, which btw explains the early days). Instead, my DW expresses her affection through small acts of kindness and the day to day stuff - particularly activities with the children.

And your cake baking example really resonates with me. He thinks: why is she baking me a cake when we have this mess to sort out and she thinks: this cake will remind him that I get him and I?m thinking of him and taking time out from my busy day for him.

I?m not saying this should necessarily be enough for you in your relationship but it may help you step back and consider things more easily.

The other thing that resonates with me is the smokescreens and goal post moving you have had over why it is that you are not getting on eg sometimes it is because of clutter/sport/stress then it is because of a fundamental lack of attraction which presumably means that a relaxed uncluttered enviroment won't affect physical attraction ? this is frustrating and it messes with your mind but I think it?s easier to get over possible resentment if you can see it not as ?conning? (though I get why you used this word I would have done 2 months ago) but perhaps done through fear or confusion on your DW?s part to avoid talking and/orsex.

Take the time that you need, and please don?t feel bad about wanting a sex life. Best of luck.

Good post

Op , why did you go ahead and have sex with your wife 3 weeks ago when you knew she didnt want to ?

I think I am right in saying,that a marriage is not a marriage unless it is consumated.

Sorry, how do you mean, amillionyears?

Yes good post, BurtNo.

Outlaw that's a good question.

It seems to me that OP has decided his wife's feelings must change, and if they don't change, he is entitled to ignore them.

He thinks his feelings are more important than hers - far too important to change, and furthermore she is not entitled to ignore them.

amillionyears

They have two children! What are you on about?

I was sort of replying to Outlaw73s post.
Now realised she didnt say what I thought she said.Sorry

It's OK to want sex. It's not OK to want it from a specific person who isn't willing to have it with you.
It's OK not to want sex. It's not OK to insist that your officially-sanctioned partner never has sex with anyone else even though you don't want to have it with the partner, ever.

Sorry, that should have read 'OK to want it from a specific person, not OK to insist on that person having it with you.'

DadIsSad - read BurtNo's post. It is the most helpful one on here (including mine .

I find the way he is looking at your problem is a constructive one.
And duckity has a point too, no one can understand what the complexities of a marriage are except those who are in it. Love and loyalty towards a DH/DW and DCs can explain you vascillating from one problem to another, not dealing with problems in the clear, efficient way that would be satisfying to read about - "Ahhah, he has read an digested my wonderful, clearcut information and acted upon it thus. Problem solved.," which is leading to some of the harsher sounding posts.

I hope all works out for you, and that posting on here has not battered you about too much. At times it has felt more like an AIBU. Probably in future, try not to make generalities in your OP.

Go for sex therapy as a couple.
If dw won't agree to this or if it doesn't work then I think you should separate.

I also think BurtNo's is the most constructive and sensible post on this entire thread.

A thread that has been littered with some bloody horrible sentiments and accusations.

I agree proudnscary. Why OPs (esp men) have to be flamed for simply asking for advice I will never understand!

Interesting post BurtNo. I'm sure every-one's read Daddisad's other thread too as well as this one to be sure of their "flaming" comments.

Hopefully his wife has more in common with yours than Daddisad has said and there is no game playing going on, just truth and good. Isn't life short to be walked over by someone who doesn't have enough courage to tell you they can't be with you as you need? Surely if your needs aren't met in a marriage you have to walk away at some point with your head still held high, before it drops from prolonged unkindness?

Flaming-no. Personal opinion-yes.

Personal opinions are absolutely fine & valid. Suggesting OP is nothing better than abusive is not. All he wants is to connect with DW. Not bully her. Not force her to have sex against her will. Not dismiss any other caring things she does. Just to have regular physical affirmation of their loving relationship. It sounds twee but it's kinda what we all need isn't it?