As a modern man I feel conned

[DadIsSad]

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

OP I think you should take up badlydrawn 's offer of chatting offline. Tbh it's a bit emasculating for you being on this thread because there are too many women on it and you sure as hell don't need any more emasculation You should also try and talk to men.

I agree with posh and olgega. With small kids, daily life can be just a drag and sex can be the absolute last thing you want. There's a bit of this going on with your DW but it's impossible for us to say really whether she's lost interest in sex or in sex with you. The difference here is that she's not willing to do anything about it one way or the other. The writing is on the wall. You can lead a horse to water etc.

Lots of advice has been given and you really shouldn't start another thread unless you've changed tack in some way.

Tbh threads like this just reinforce my view that long-term monogomy is unworkable for lots and lots of people.

If that is true,solidbrass,then he knows what to do
It would probably be enough to keep him there
not sure if it is enough to help him with the depression

He won't be back until he's had sex again and feels that the housework is still the issue. It isn't. Being a victim is an empowering state to continue to be depressed. Its not attractive and maybe his wife is fed up with self pity!

The thing is that he has received a fair bit of support and sympathy here in the past so tends to get the validation he needs. But it's wearing a little thin now.

I have more concern for his wife.

amillionyears - I've been avoiding the thread deliberately because I'm not sure it's good for my MH to be on here all the time as I was for a few days. Have had a couple of PMs with people. Thank you to those who get it. It just seems to become too much like hard work on here having to explain yourself (yet again) when you get misinterpreted.

Don't worry - I'm no worse than I was (just different maybe). Had an initial individual counselling assessment session, though I'm not sure where I'm going with that or what I'm trying to get out of it. Was with Relate and the person I spoke to seemed rather surprised that I was back there for individual counselling after we'd finished couples counselling. I have to admit I'm a bit confused about what I'm doing there for individual counselling, but it was what the gateway worker I saw at my GP recommended trying (given a 6+ month wait to see anybody on the NHS), and our couples counsellor seemed happy with the idea. Will have a couple of sessions maybe and see how it goes, though I suspect I'll end up going elsewhere. BTW whoever commented that I'm using this as surrogate therapy is spot on - I think I even suggested as such myself.

The thing is though, for those recommending I get my mental health sorted first - I get how it's my issue and not my wife's, but that doesn't mean it's not intrinsically to do with our relationship issues, hence why I did post here rather than in MH (I might have avoided the barbed comments over there, but I'd have also missed out on lots of good advice). Certainly the drugs seem to help little enough (over the last week I've been far more down than I had been for a long time, even well before I started on them - hence starting another thread on here). So the question is how I sort out my mental health without changing any of the things causing me problems?

SGB couldn't be more wrong - hence the delayed reaction to actually having sex which sAf seems to be objecting to. Yes I did leave the last thread when we had sex - not because I thought everything was solved, but because I had a head full of good feelings and thought I might as well make the most of it - coming on here isn't necessarily all that good for my mood. I have even explicitly said a few times that it's not actually having sex (very certainly not the physical side - the glow from that doesn't last several days) which is the intrinsic problem but a symptom of everything else wrong - it's just the quickest easiest label to use (though I'd argue that you have to spend a few years with a normal sex drive sleeping next to a partner you love and only masturbation for release to appreciate just how soul destroying that is). It went well for 3 weeks until our last Relate session and the discovery that DW didn't find me attractive at all (amongst other things), which brought with it the realisation that the sex we had wasn't something DW really wanted (when I'd thought that maybe she'd made a conscious rather than emotional decision to start with, but had enjoyed doing it) which is what dragged me down. Hence my very poorly phrased OP which I'm still being flamed for. If I did have the attitude SGB attributes to me, I'd not be feeling the way sAf considers so objectionable - as mentioned the time period since we had sex is not so dissimilar to that later in the relationship (it was far more frequent at the start) for me to be complaining about the lack of current frequency.

Not going to comment on domestic stuff, as it seems I can't win - if I mention DW's comments without background you think I'm a complete slob, if I try to give some context I'm obsessed by it - except to say that sAf is so wrong (maybe I still have a propensity to talk myself down).

Helltotheno - I assumed her lack of interest in sex was due to tiredness from pregnancy, small kids etc., hence why I hung in so long in the hope things would pass (I first came on mn when the only time we'd had sex in the previous 5 years had resulted in conception, and we'd gone past the milestone of it being longer without sex than the gap between our children). I think a lot of the reason I did originally come on here was in an attempt to work out whether this was normal.

I'm not ignoring all the advice - not at all. But there is a bit of history re-writing to suggest that this thread is just like my previous one, let alone that the same advice is being repeated. I mean everybody here has been busy telling me to either leave or put up and shut up, when previously the a lot of the advice had been about trying to fix things - and now along come a few suggestions to try again with our marriage doing couply things etc. I was tempted to argue that the other posters on here are at least predictable in their attitudes across threads, but then newby2 appeared to have been pleased at the "emotional blackmail" working back then!

I totally get that the grass isn't greener - if I thought that, it would make leaving a lot easier, and I don't suppose I'd be making comments about expecting leaving to make me less happy. You're right that most of my life is great, that somebody outside would think we have the perfect family and that should be enough - the trouble is that I'm still unhappy and depressed. Maybe I'm differently wired to badlydrawn - it seems from comments of others that I'm far from unusual in that sense.

I do have a deadline in my head, and have had for a while (just that it used to be a deadline for having sex, now it's a deadline for fixing things properly and having meaningful sex). In the meantime I do hope we can do as poshbird suggests and get some proper couple time together, and just enjoy that - one of the issues we have is that we've only been out once as a couple without kids - when I started this thread I'd have said that the things you suggest were impossible, but something has changed which might make things a lot easier. For all those suggesting it's futile, and concerned about me just doing this to pressurise my DW into having sex with me, I'm looking forward to such things for their own sake - I do genuinely enjoy spending time with my DW doing things, and hoping to really enjoy stuff we haven't done together for a long, long time even if that doesn't lead to anything else. The only trouble is that I feel like something inside me has changed in the last week, which has me a lot closer to the door than I was.

"So the question is how I sort out my mental health without changing any of the things causing me problems?"

what, explicitly, is causing you the mental health problems?

Did your wife explain why she found you unattractive?

Did you manage to do something about the clutter? (see my previous post on this)

ok so she told you she didn't find you attractive at all after she'd had sex with you in a counselling session. though you acknowledge you already knew she made herself have that sex rather than wanting it you had hoped that she'd gotten into it afterwards? so you knew when you started having sex with her that she didn't want to but you buffered yourself somehow from the implications of that until she said she wasn't attracted to you at all.

so now presumably you can imagine/feel what that sexual encounter was like for her - done without attraction or desire - that would be pretty awful to face but important to face it too. bearing in mind that sex for a woman means being physically entered so there is a different slant to it iyswim.

well then you really are in a no win situation now. having faced the reality of what sex is for your wife if she does give in and have it you no longer feel able to do it anyway and 'hope she gets into it'. so now basically you accept no sex or you have sex fully conscious of the fact that she doesn't want it and is enduring sex with a man she isn't attracted to

it's over isn't it OP? you don't want to be that man and you don't want to live without sex and those are the two options in your relationship now aren't they? go without or feel like you're violating someone for own pleasure which isn't pleasurable at all i should hope. i also think the 'stop if you can't climax' request is code for get it over with quickly

do you really want to live with a woman who finds you unattractive? that's what is soul destroying surely - not going without sex but living with someone who doesn't find you attractive.

your therapy in my opinion should be focussed on improving self esteem, improving ability to engage in life in ways which facilitate that and add pleasure, sense of purpose and community to your life. if you are going to go elsewhere i'd recommend some human givens therapy which would focus on looking at your resources for meeting your needs and where they need assistance.

'I do have a deadline in my head, and have had for a while (just that it used to be a deadline for having sex, now it's a deadline for fixing things properly and having meaningful sex). '

The end goal is still getting sex I see.

You could try reading some archives of Dan Savage's sex advice column, I find he has a very clear way of thinking. This question (one person wants sex, the other doesn't) has come up a number of times in various forms. One thing he points out is this: if sex is really totally unimportant to one partner, it's a little unclear why it's so important if the other partner has it with someone else (it being, after all, unimportant, unnecessary, etc). On the other hand if it's really really really important, so much so that it's such a travesty to get it outside the relationship, then it needs to be acknowledged and a way found to have it work within the marriage. But you can't have it both ways: unimportant/never done if within the marriage, sacred and all-powerful and life-changing ultimatum if outside. If you make great platonic partners/ friends and really want to stay together, maybe an open marriage would help?

The other thing he's pointed out is that (as others have said) having pressure on for sex doesn't help and isn't sexy - so just cuddling only, or kissing only, or massage only, with it being understood that there aren't expectations beyond that, can help kick-start things. Anyway for what it's worth I think you sound loving and thoughtful even if the caveman analogy is, um, a little suspect ...

can only imagine his wife feels that too ashesgirl - that everything he does or tries or says is just about trying to get sex. think it's broken beyond repair.

Don't underestimate the effect that getting out of a bad relationship can have on your mental health. Every minute you're with her, you're reminded that she doesn't fancy you, she doesn't think you're good enough, she could always be about to say something that will take you right down. How would you feel without the constant scrutiny?

TBH neither of you sound terribly pleasant. She manipulates by being cruel, you manipulate by sulking. What could either of you be getting out of this relationship? Maybe if you left you'd find someone who actually wants to have sex with you.

Yes, I'm ecstatic you're emotionally blackmailing your wife!! No, you're completely wrong Im afraid about the last thread. The advice was very much understanding and fight for your marriage until your self pity and emotional blackmail became clear and the feeling changed. This thread is exactly the same.

Find a point to life outside of sex with your wife. Find something that is outside of your world and can help you focus on your belief system and what makes you tick as a person. There are horrendous things happening to people all the time. Walk out the door and find something meaningful for yourself.

'I do have a deadline in my head, and have had for a while (just that it used to be a deadline for having sex, now it's a deadline for fixing things properly and having meaningful sex). '

That's not the type of deadline you need op cos that just isn't going to happen. The only thing that will (possibly) make your wife interested in sex with you again is the very real prospect of you having sex with someone else. I'd be prepared to bet it'll never (willingly on your wife's part) happen again the way things are... but y'know, it's your life!

Just tell her you're going to shag someone else already! Seriously, stop dragging out the inevitable...

have you considered seeing a vet?

"It just seems to become too much like hard work on here having to explain yourself (yet again) when you get misinterpreted."

I think what you actually find hard is facing up to some painful truths.

What an interesting post, DadIsSad.

You say you're now closer to the door, but I think we're all closer to the reason why you post here in the first place.

What you are doing is seeking approval, and reasons to justify what you are about to do so that you can go ahead without feeling guilty and miserable for doing it.

It seems to me you are absolutely determined to put yourself first, no matter what. I'm not sure you need counselling really - what you're looking for is agreement, approval and sympathy.

At least it sounds like your wife will manage just fine without you.

Well done to DadIsSad for getting back to us with all that,and being quite clear.
He appears very genuine to me,and is genuinely trying to sort through his issues and marriage.Depression makes that hard,so he is doing well.
We,myself included,may want him to make faster changes and steps,but we are not in his place.
And glad a couple of people are pming you,hopefully helping you further.

One thing I have learnt from being on MN in the last few months,is that I noticed that the people suffering from emotional and maybe other froms of abuse ,are generally only able to mov forward with small steps .
They generally get to where they want to be,but they have to eg,find the phone number for womens aid,then a few weeks later,ring it,then keep the number safe for a while,then ring them again etc.

I think what you actually find hard is facing up to some painful truths.

So nobody on here is misinterpreting me? I guess that means nobody would suggest "The end goal is still getting sex I see." when I've made lots of effort to explain how that's just not so, and I'm only talking about a milestone in my own head which is significant of so much more.

In how many ways can the poor woman say she doesn't want to have sex with you before you listen to her?

If your end goal is not sex, why do you keep starting threads about it and why do you keep referring to it in your posts?

Yes I know you don't like to be viewed in this way so you counter this verbally. But your actions suggest otherwise ... to me, at least.

Dear DadIsSad,your best bet on here is to only reply to the bits you want to reply to.I think perhaps,on here,and in real life,that you need to learn the wonderful art of ignoring.
Forget your fear of being misinturpreted.
You dont have any image to live up to on here,and the people that genuinely want to help you take no notice at all of some things that are written on this and other threads.
When you learn to practice the art of ignoring, it allows things that are either unimportant,or rude,or best left , to magically disappear.Tis brill.

Narked - I don't think she's actually t

Opps hit post to soon. I don't think she's explicitly told him she doesn't want to have sex with him. More that she doesn't want to have sex with him now. He is trying to save his marriage which (regardless how the rest if us may feel about his chances of success) is an admirable thing.

too soon even. I give up!