As a modern man I feel conned

[DadIsSad]

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

I think the direct questions above really need addressing.

I think you need to think about how much sex would be reasonable, maybe the lowest amount you would be happy with. Then I think you need to tell her. That is kinder to her too - she knows exactly where she stands with you. At the moment you are moaning about it a bit and she is avoiding it thinking if she makes some excuse about housework she will have sex, but another day. This is going to carry on indefinitely.

If I was in your DW's situation I would much rather my DH came straight out and said "I need sex at least once a month" (which I would take as very reasonable, on the low side for most people - but maybe after no sex for years asking for twice a day would be too much!) than I would keep feeling I was being pestered or letting my DH down. Would she take this option? An agreement that you do it a set frequency and then you don't ask for it, hint for it or expect it at any other time. I'm not talking about coercion here. I'm talking about reaching an agreement you are both reasonably happy with and could save your marriage.

Then if she says no, you can broach whether you take sex out of the relationship elsewhere. I don't mean in a threatening "well, I'll go elsewhere then!" kind of way, but in a "would you be happier if sex was completely off the agenda and I got sex - and only sex - somewhere else," kind of way. In a loving adult relationship I think you should be able to discuss these things. You may find you suggesting that is a relief to her and she would be very happy to stay with you, as people who have a platonic love for each other, with sex off the agenda.

OP, I think you have to tackle these things, however uncomfortable they are. Because hedging round them is just going to leave you - and probably your DW - unhappy and depressed this time next week, month, year, decade.

Thanks ashesgirl :)

OP & Proud I would like to point out that I DO NOT think you're/he is a rapist! Not at all.

I'm sensitive maybe. Because I do sometimes think that people use see depression as a carte blanche to say/do or not say/do anything and it's not that. Not at all. It's a sickness that CAN be treated.

My DH was and is incredibly supportive. But ultimately I'M the one who had to work to get better. I'm not better now. I'm still working on it. But it's my road, my health, my mind, my problem (for want of a better word) and not anyone else's job to fix it.

Walter - if your DH was and is incredibly supportive, then maybe you don't really get what the OP is going through.

If you had cancer and a supportive DH your experience of having cancer could well be entirely different from someone who's DH couldn't give a toss.

Yes, there is a lot of help for depression out there and yes the first step is to take responsibility for your own mental health. However, the course of recovery is different for everyone and depends on lots of factors like getting the right treatment, family background, stress and relationships.

But I think we can probably agree that the first thing the OP needs to do is concentrate on his own mental health rather than amount of sex he's not having.

Dadissad - I've been reading this thread over the last couple of days, and having read your previous treads I wanted to post my response as a man who is in a similar position. My wife and I haven't made love in over 5 years since our DS was conceived, like you I don't want to break up my family, and despite the lack of intimacy I get on very well with my DW, however I feel we are more like two very good friends co-habiting than husband and wife.
Someone posted earlier on the thread that you had a number of options and that these boiled down to :
1.either you leave or
2.you stay and put up with the situation.
I'm not advocating the other option of a affair (agreed by your partner or not) as I personally think that if you go down this route then you should be doing option 1.

From reading others posts on this subject (it's quite often discussed) I realised that the most important thing for me was to be there everyday to see my son grow and that leading a celibate life was a price worth paying for that. I'll caveat that by saying, I'm not sure if I'll always feel that way, I'm 41 and the thought that I'll never have sex again is depressing, it can be hard to hide your resentment, especially when all your friends think that you have a great marriage and are a perfect couple, but as the saying goes "you make your bed and you lie in it".

My personal take on your situation is that you are flogging a dead horse, your partner isn't interested and probably never will be again. Do you stay or do you go, you decide. If you stay, it isn't going to be easy, but you just have to get on and deal with it, finally accepting it isn't going to happen will hopefully make you stronger and help with the depression.

Feel free to PM me if you want to chat off the board.

Walter - nobody said you thought OP is a rapist.

What Triff says is absolutely key - you have a supportive partner. OP doesn't - again for reasons we can't be totally sure of.

I also agree with Magic who says in a much more productive way, to put the sex issue aside and work on himself/depression and work out what he wants. The wife, it appears, is not going to offer solutions - neither give him answers, suddenly desire him or even leave the marriage.

I haven't posted on this thread before, but have lurked. Your situation reminds me very much of that a friend of mine is in. Her DH has said that he's unhappy with the lack of sex in their relationship and that he feels that she's too busy doing house stuff that could wait. He also complains that she's not romantic towards him or loving. I don't know what she says to him, but to me she just repeats 'well what does he expect after x number of years?'

I feel sorry for her DH, he tries talking to her but she's just not that bothered. People like this do exist and if I were in a relationship like this I'd walk eventually.

Ask yourself what would have to happen to make you decide that it's not going to work. Then ask has that already happened.

Proud I know that, I just wanted to make very clear that I don't think that! :)

And I don't mean to sound like I think I'm any sort of authority on depression. Yes, the effect on different people is vastly different and of course my life is made that bit easier by having a supportive spouse.

I just really think this constant insistence on focusing on the sex issue as opposed to focusing on himself and getting better, well it's all a bit pointless. Maybe he's focusing on the sex thing because it's outside his control. Therefore it's someone else's problem to fix. Because I know when I'm bad I don't want to deal with anything so it's much more desirable to have someone else do things for me. Does that make sense?

Anyway OP I think you should listen to the overwhelming consensus here. Leave it be. Yes it is making you unhappy. But it's not making you ill. Concentrate on getting better and then you'll be better equipped to make what is a very difficult decision.

I didn't call the OP a rapist. I said it seemed like he was seeking justification/encouragement for having sex on his wife whether she likes it or not or at the very least, condemnation of his wife for not opening her legs enough depsite the fact that he seems uninterested in her as a human being and incapable of listening to her, very few questions about her attitude to the marriage have been answered by him, he just keeps on and on about how she can be made to accept his cock.

OP, just read this site. www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/

Read it again and again and again.

What does 'having sex with his wife whether she likes it or not' mean exactly then?

You might find OP whingey or ineffectual or fixated on sex or politically askew, but he has made it clear he doesn't want to have sex with a woman who doesn't want sex with him.

How can he answer questions about her attitude to the marriage? He's not inside her head and she's not opening up. He's told us many times and in detail about her complaints about domestic input.

You say: 'he just keeps on and on about how she can be made to accept his cock'. The truth is he is desperately, possibly misguidedly, trying to salvage their currently non existent sex life to ultimately save the marriage.

I have read most of this thread but not all of it. Both you and your wife seem very depressed and compleatly unable to communicate.

My DP suffers from depression and it is very complicated, I don't think depression can be underestimated at all.

If you both saw these issues as problems you wanted to over come and work on then I would say its well worth trying, put some time aside once a week and spend some time reconnecting, start with chatting about what you love about each other and gradually over time add more intimacey, hand on knee, holding hands ect. You cannot rush into sex, it has been too long and will feel too pressured. The most important thing (IMO) is to reconnect on a loveing level and build from there.

Having said all of that from what I have read both of you don't see this as a problem and both of you don't want to over come this. You can't force someone to change, you can't force someone to discover their sexuality, if she is happy not having sex and does not feel the need to connect with herself in that way there is not much you can do about it.

You want a forfilled sex life and she is currently feeling forfilled having no sex life, this means you are both on different levels and nether of you should be forced to change that.

The fact you both started out very sexually nieve and didn't really discover new things together, honestly, probably ment that years down the line it was only going to get worse.

I am really sorry but your realtionship does not sound mentally good for either of you, your now very depressed and your DW has compleatly retreated in to herself (in respect of your relationship). I don't think anyone on here sees this getting better, only worse.

FWIW I think your messages sound like they come for a very depressed man that does not know what to do about any of this, not just the sex. I think getting your meds right and having threapy to work on your depression and self esteam should be your priorty. Once you are in a more comfatable place with your self then it may be easier for you to help your DW (if in fact she wants help, remember, she maybe genuinly happy how she is).

Sorry for all of the spelling mistakes! I can't spell and don't have spell check on my phone. You probably should take advice from someone who can bearly spell the word!

badlydrawn and poshbird make some very good points.

OP you have young children, they aren't that age for very long. All too soon you'll be looking back nostalgically at how they've changed and grown. If you think of your life as 75 or 80 yards of ribbon, the length of it which represents these years raising your family with your wife, watching your children grow and mature, is really quite short.

If you're happy living with your children, happy in your home, you and your wife get on - isn't that enough for now? I think you have become obsessed with the notion that there is one piece of a jigsaw missing in an otherwise perfect puzzle. You can either admire what you have helped to create, disregarding the one imperfection, or throw the whole lot up in the air, move on and get yourself a new puzzle to work on.

If you are constantly giving off vibes of dissatisfaction, lack of contentment and even resentment, that is going to be a real turn-off for your wife. You describe feeling that you have been "conned", which I have to say I think is very unfair and self-regarding. I wonder how much of that feeling seeps into your everyday relations and communication with your wife?

Would you be happier if you were having great regular sex and had a lovely home but no children? Or having great sex with loads of children, no paid work and living in cramped, unsatisfactory accommodation? The obvious point here is, not many people have a wholly satisfactory life - and there is often very little they can do about it.

She works, and you say she loves spending time with the children. Your children are young, so your wife's life is pretty full-on. Often as a mum I feel I only have so much energy for emotional engagement and intimacy, and I usually feel as though I am managing ok, but running with the needle hovering above empty. I think when you have children most people feel like that. You find the energy, somehow, for the things you need to survive - and for your wife, as for many people, sex just isn't one of them.

I think you have to decide whether you can happily make a go of it and appreciate what you have. Of course you will want certain areas of your life to change or improve - that's part of life - and indeed things may change and improve. Who knows what emotional/hormonal/psychological/pshycial issues are in play with regard to what your wife thinks about sex at this time of her life.

It's not as though your wife doesn't want to have sex with you but would still like to have an active sex life. She's not having sex with you because she doesn't want to have sex.

I think you need to think seriously about whether you can settle for the otherwise good life you appear to have - or whether you want to make the whole family suffer emotionally and financially for years to come, for the sake of your dissatisfaction with this one area of your life.

Can I suggest you go and get counselling yourself. That would give you a chance to talk through the problems as you see them, and how you communicate with your wife? It may help you to see whether you wanted to pursue couple counselling, or to make up your mind what you want out of life.

I think you need to make a decision about whether you can be happy living your life the way it is, or whether you'd be happier leaving. Either way there are consequences you will have to face - not all of them easy or happy.

the thing she did have sex with him 3 weeks ago after agreeing to try harder. she did. and he's gone back to sulking and moaning straight after and waiting to see if she'll notice how miserable he is or come and touch him etc. she HAS made an effort and yet he doesn't seem to acknowledge that and then goes and ruins it by behaving like a passive aggressive manchild again. it isn't attractive and it hasn't shown her any benefit to having sex with him given the guilt trips are still going on.

she had sex with him - he should have then been happy they'd made some headway and continued being nice and positive and natural with her and trying to keep things going. instead he's gone back to sitting sulking and complaining she isn't coming to fawn over him in his sulk.

bearing in mind that even at the beginning of the relationship they rarely had sex for them 3 weeks isn't long ago. it WAS improving but the OP has brought it up again and guilt tripped again already. so within a couple of weeks the sulking had restarted and within 3 weeks he's back on here moaning about her lack of sexual interest again.

there's more to getting someone to fancy and want to be intimate with you than than sulking and applying emotional blackmail.

i too have suffered with depression. it isn't sexy. focus on getting well - sex is the least of your worries right now.

swallow - I might be wrong, but wasn't that a different poster Bartolli? on another thread who sorted out the sex issue three weeks or so ago. Then again I might have missed a crucial post on this thread.

i'm pretty sure that the OP said his wife and him had sex three weeks ago after promising to make more of an effort.

Yes he did say they slept together about 3 weeks ago.

swallow Fair enough - there's a lot of pages on this thread, and some sensible advice for the OP. As you and others have said, he needs to focus on getting well, as that will help any further decisions.

Could it be that your wife is no longer attracted to you due to the fact that you are depressed?

The fact that you are seemingly crowing about doing perfectly normal things like housework and childcare might be a clue to your real attitude to her.

Does she also make such a big deal about her contribution to family life

Swallow is 100% right. You will find this exact thread on Dadissad's last thread not long ago where identical advice was given, discussed and dully abruptly thrown out as soon as he had sex with his wife again. Dadissad just left the thread. The emotional blackmail had worked, his wife had played the game, job done.

Yes, depression is awful but it can also serve you well when you enjoy being a victim again and again. Harsh, I know but people have a lot worse to deal with in life.

DadIdSad,are you ok?
You havent been on here since tuesday evening.

She's let him hop on to shut him up again, so he'll be back in a fortnight with a new whining thread and ignore everyone's advice again.

Every ones sex drive is different If she doesnt want sex that much you cant complain at her. If you arent happy leave. what is the point in staying if u are depressed about it.