As a modern man I feel conned

[DadIsSad]

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

amillionyears Id be willing to bet you didn't read Dadissad's last thread. He's mastered the art of ignoring perfectly. You'll concur with the victim mentality if that's the way you operate in life too. Every-one can say its boring, rude, unimportant if it helps them to remain stuck in the situation they're in I'm afraid Ive had enough of manipulation to collaborate with dysfunctional attitudes.

There are people who post on MN who have a TERRIBLE time and do everything they can to be a good person and GROW from other's comments. He'll talk a good story every-time.

How are you trying to save your marriage?

you say " I am trying hard to do more now, and address some of the things which irritate her"

what are those things that irritate her? From what you have written it sounds like she has given you precise examples of those things. Have you consistantly changed those things?

" Was crying during the session yesterday as I described how I don't feel attractive because I don't feel that she finds me attractive" you say she has told you she does not find you attractive, did she give you any reasons? What have you done to change those things?

"My mental health might not be DW's responsibility (in the same way my happiness isn't), but if I suggested my depression was largely due to any other factor I'd be lying. What exactly am I supposed to say?"

this is about sex, yes?

No I didnt read his last thread.
If you think it will help the op,you can tell me what the thread is.
Do you think he is moving forward in baby steps,I do.

newby2,dont you agree with me that when the posts are just plain wrong,a person would be wise to ignore them,very wise.

Yes but who is to say a post is 'plain wrong'? People post what they think. The OP might not like their opinions, fair enough. Of course, he can ignore if it's wants to - entirely up to him. That doesn't mean the post is right OR wrong, though.

I think what people are saying here is that he selectively listens to what he wants to hear. Then he come back on in a few weeks, listing the same problems (still not getting enough sex), nothing's changed and yet he would still like more support and sympathy.

Is it any wonder that people get fed up with that?

Dad,

You seem to be going around in circles trying to solve your "problem". However, really there are several problems to solve: your differing sex drives, your basic relationship and your MH. I would start on the latter two and then see if number one sorts itself out. You are very unlikely to have good sex in a poor relationship. The thing is you don't have to change infinitely to please your wife. As long as you feel that you are being decent and pulling your weight, it is up to your wife to decide whether she wants to continue a relationship with you. And, if she merely wants a comfortable home and help with childcare and you are not happy with that, then you have only one way out, which is to leave.

I asked you a question on my last post, which you don't seem to want to answer. If you look back at a time when you were most comfortable in your own skin, what would the "you" at that time have done now? What advice would he be offering your current depressed self? I suspect it would be to get out and preserve your self respect. But only you can answer that question and I suspect it may give you some insight into where you are.

As to the others inferring that you are some sort of monster, you clearly are not. To me you are becoming a doormat, trying to meld yourself to what your wife would like you to be in order to get "sex". I agree with the poster above who says that if sex has no importance to her genuinely, why would she object to you getting it elsewhere? It is at least a basis for an honest discussion with her, if that is what you want.

But ashesgirl,if you feel like that,why do you repost?

Although I have read his posts before, I haven't expressed my opinions on them. This time I am.

His post.He can do what he likes.
He can have as much support and sympathy as others are prepared to give him.
If you dont want to carry on giving,that is up to you.
If he writes 20 threads on the same subject,with 20 different headines,all in 1 year,and people respond,that is up to him.

"The end goal is still getting sex I see." when I've made lots of effort to explain how that's just not so, and I'm only talking about a milestone in my own head which is significant of so much more.'
-I am (again) not getting the difference here, between sex as sex, and sex as a significant milestone. It is still sex.

'So the question is how I sort out my mental health without changing any of the things causing me problems?'
-You open up to the counsellor and stop asking yourself what you are doing there and being unsure where it will lead or what good it will do. You stop fixating on the idea you have that it is issues intrinsic to your relationship that is causing it/sex will cure it, and you explore your fear of rejection/misinterpretation/being known/being open to others, your father's suicide, your goal orientedness/Mr Fix It persona (control issue), how important winning at your sport was to you, your communication style (do you ignore and stonewall and get defensive and split hairs?), and anything else that you have mentioned in passing while focusing the majority of your attention to sex.

I am also wondering what specific things you do that irritate your wife and what being shit consisted of in the past, plus how decisions have been made in your life with her - working away a lot, time devoted to sport, house purchase, etc.

You are quite right, he can do that.

And equally, some of the posters who have read the previous threads will come on to ask what progress he has made since he last posted.

Despite some of the frustration on here, I think most posters on here do actually want to help, not to flame him for no purpose

Amillionyears, read his last thread then see how you feel. I can't summarise the mountain of help and advice he had and bailed out the moment his wife was intimate with him. Despite compassionate and sympathetic advice (me included) the sulking starts for more "afterglow" when he realises his wife wasn't joking when she said she can't stand intimacy with her.

Baby steps to what? Making a woman feel totally inadequate. Hopefully she's pushing him to the door and he's just about ready to open it.

On here, its easy to see people who are genuinely distressed and who WANT to move themselves on and those who's mind sets are set in victim that they will never be able to take advice so whats the point of coming on here. It makes the genuine people's stories much stronger. Yes I am trying to bust him WIDE open so he can stop harassing a woman for sex.

Dad seriously you really need to stop focusing on sex!

You ask how you can get better without your marriage getting better. But you, as you are, cannot be contributing healthily to this relationship!

You say you have a deadline for sex. Then you say it's not about sex. I think you need to do both your wife and you a favour and end this now. It's painful to read about, let alone live in.

Well if amillionyears doesn't want to read the last thread, I did (and all my previous ones on here - maybe not every post in detail, there are a lot), as I was wondering if you had a point. Still don't understand the reason for the complete shift in attitude - clearly you didn't object to anything on the previous thread, despite the fact that I opened up with a description of how I had mixed feelings about the situation (I mean the thread was titled "Now I'm really confused"!) as you signed off "Excellent!!! Enjoy yourselves, you're obviously committed to each other." I also didn't suggest I thought that was an end to our problems, but I was expecting things might improve from there, rather than have conversations where she can't find a single thing to say that she likes about me and then in the relate session that she doesn't find me attractive. Ironically enough when everybody seems to think it's just the sex I'm after it's actually the lack of intimacy after we've had sex which is bothering me. I signed off because I was hoping that things really were on an upward curve, and as mentioned above, being on mn was only likely to drag me down and not do anything to help - and nobody seemed to be saying "leave her" at that point.

So it must be something on here. I am trying to take on advice from here, and I have taken a lot in and acted on some of it, though it's hard, so I'm just wondering at what point and why you moved from thinking "a very sweet and loyal Dadissad will be forced to ultimate his wife or just call it a day. It's such a sad story. They're both trapped." to determining that I'm busy making a woman feel totally inadequate, using emotional blackmail and harassing a woman for sex (clearly I'm not very good at it if I am)?

Those who are continually negative are easy to ignore, those like you who seem to understand and care and give good advice before turning on me less so. Is it simply because I started a new thread rather than carried on with the old one? Not a deliberate attempt to sweep everything under the carpet if so. Is it because you think I'm reposting the same problem in which nothing has changed -well that's not the way I see it (maybe you all saw the recent developments coming and I'm just slow at catching up)? Is it because of the language I used in my first post (and other earlier posts) when I was in the depths and ranting? Genuinely interested in why.

rather than have conversations where she can't find a single thing to say that she likes about me and then in the relate session that she doesn't find me attractive.

Why do you WANT to stay married to someone like that?

I think he believes he has some entitlement to his wife and her body. That's why he's clinging on so hard here. It's not about caring about her. It's about what he wants from her (sex).

Nyac - you're entitled to your opinion ;)

You're not answering direct questions OP.

Nyac,

I find your post and their ilk quite humorous. If Dad wanted sex, why on earth would he hang on? If sex were really what he cared about, he would have moved on to greener pastures ages ago. He is with possibly the worst person possible if that is his only goal!

What is screaming clearly to me from his posts is that he is desperately looking for approbation from his wife but couching it in terms of "sex". What is she doing to him, telling him that she finds him unattractive and rationing sex out, rather than just leaving, whilst knowing he is depressed? He is drowning and she has her foot on his head. If this thread were the other way around, most of the posts would say she is being emotionally abusive of him.

Personally, I think they have too much resentment and history to get over what is now between them and they would both be healthier moving on. However, the blame is certainly not all in his court.

If she is being EA then all the more reason for him to leave then no?

I know it's not that simple of course but he doesn't seem to WANT to leave!

Did she say why she doesn't find you attractive?

Maybe people are finding it hard to advise you because you are failing to give any information which would help to see it from her point of view.

Yep,

To be honest I struggle with terms like EA. I just think that sometimes in relationships, the things that attracted someone originally come to annoy and two people who know each other intimately are best placed to pick at one another's scabs.

You either have to REALLY reset the clock (on both sides) and make a real effort to reconnect, or split up. However, the former is really hard and takes commitment from both sides. And I have not seen Dad post one post suggesting his wife is that bothered one way or the other. And that would be assuming he is prepared to reset the clock himself, which setting deadlines for a suitable sex life indicates that he is not.

Unfortunately, I do think he is starting to enjoy being a victim a little too much. From whichever side of the fence most posters are coming, ultimately the advice is the same...LEAVE.

for some men there aren't greener pastures and they know it. so the keep on at the one they managed to catch.

SaF,

There are few men so ugly or lacking in charm that they cannot get a shag if that is all that they are after. And, with DisS's ability to write, he clearly COULD be charming.

Its very easy to look into someones problems and criticise them. Unless you have LIVED like this, you cannot possibly know how it feels. I did. No intimacy for many years.

It took me literally years to leave my marriage. Many many reasons, I wanted it to work, seen parents divorced didn't want the same, just living in limbo waiting for things to change....blah blah blah. The funny thing is when I look back, I knew it would end, it was just a matter of time.

Maybe you are the same SadDad, you know whats going to happen, but just aren't ready to make the move yet. You will know when you are, you will just do it.