Divorcing Dad: Should the engagement ring be returned to me?

[Freshlygroundbeans]

This is my first post on this website-

I have been married for almost 10months and am about to get a divorce. My partner is a solicitor and has drafted the Separation Agreement. The separation is by mutual agreement and will be uncontested.
The reasons for divorce are very complex. They relate to the children of a blended family and mental health issues. These issues were prevalent before we got married but became exacerbated after the wedding . There is a mutual feeling that we should never have got married.
Within the agreement she cites : ?The parties agree that she keep the engagement ring given to her by DH?. The ring is still being paid off and is a significant amount of money. Both parties will be undergoing financial strain when moving on. I will be leaving the home with my son and do not particularly want to be continuing making payments on an engagement ring !
I have asked her to return the ring whereby I will sell to retrieve the expense .My own reasons are that the ring is now meaningless and has no symbolic value. A sham. For my mind it would be an honourable gesture of her to return it to me.
Her response is that it is a gift. She even cites a law case stating that legally she is entitled to keep it .In this regard she may be correct. However, I think this is a ?moral issue? more than ?gift issue?. I intend to remain friends with her but I know my friendship will be determined by her attitude to this issue.
What are all your thoughts? What would you do?

Ring was £1400. Flights and other travel also went onto card. Both had existing debts too. Have been paying money off card from joint account at varying amounts each month. Debt on card is £2600. I want to split it. He doesn't and wants the ring back.

Anyhow, thank you for all support. Off to my first Bikram yoga class today to try and get some kind of inner zen

Ah, all makes sense now FreshlyGroundBeans - I bet your sister quite fancies that ring - the ring which Freckled Leopard actually paid for in part, after you'd given a load of the joint money away to your family.

Quite frankly, if FreckledLeopard is only asking for the ring back, and not a reimbursement of costs incurred due to the actions of you and your family, then you've got away pretty lightly.

And how about you phrase your question more honestly next time ? How about " AIBU to demand the engagement ring back, given that I haven't yet paid for it as I gave to my sister the funds that my wife and I had set aside for the ring ? "

OP - you don't get the ring back, sorry, no way. And how ironic that you called your STBXW 'entitled' - then we hear her side of the story!

FreckledLeopard - keep the ring. What the OP and his family did to you during your wedding was horrible, I'm not surprised you couldn't get past that. Wishing you all the best for the future.

Initially, I believed that the ring should be returned. However, the OP was very economical with the truth, when he laid out the situation for us - he left out the essential back story to this fiasco of a marriage. I remember the first thread about this and if I'd known we were talking about that marriage, i would have had a completely different opinion.

So, I take back what I previously said and the ring should not be returned to him - he ought to have paid for it out of the money he initially set aside. His refusal to deal with his own family, is his problem and not hers.

Just to add, OP, that I think it's shitty to come into her place and try to use it against her. If that's indicative of what a manipulative, spiteful man you are, then she is well rid of you.

1. No you bloody can't demand the ring back! Don't be so pathetic! The engagement ring is hers.

1. If you can't afford £1500 on an engagement ring, then don't spend it. How silly.

Rather late to the party, but my initial thought was that having the ring returned to you to sell OP was a bit of a waste as resale value would be peanuts.
If she wanted to keep it, it must have meant something, at some point. I did think it was rather naive if not mean spirited to want it back.
Having now read the back story and your ex wife's contribution to this thread I find your use of the words 'moral' and 'honourable' quite laughable, if not insulting to be honest.
Your wife is well rid of you by the sounds of things. I hope she finds her inner zen most speedily.

Freckle , keep the ring. A gift, which is what it was, should be given without conditions.

I've not read the whole of the thread, but surely all debts are considered joint in a marriage, and therefore she is equally responsible for paying off the ring? It's not a simple issue of it being a gift.

I also agree that it will be near worthless in terms of resale value, so if you're relying on it as startup costs for your new single life you're wasting your time. You might as well write it off.

My feeling though is that as debts are shared, she should pay half the outstanding remainder of the ring. Whether or not she wants to keep it is irrelevant; see my point re resale.

that'll teach me not to read the whole thing!!! OP, you're an arsehole.

Who is the main account holder for the credit card? I suspect it is the op,which is why he doesn't want to aplit the debt half each. AND he wants the ring!

This amuses me: The reasons for divorce are very complex. They relate to the children of a blended family and mental health issues.

This is disingenuous, to say the least.

Dear Mr Freshly Groundbeans

I read original Freckle's wedding thread and the account of your sister's behaviour open mouthed and horrified that Freckle was effectively conned into paying for your sister's holiday and party. And that her mother too was pulled into being asked for cash was the cheapest lowest behaviour.

That you have the gall to put forward your case for the ring here on Mumsnet where we are now aware of the full story and your behaviour -condoning your family's deceit against your wife - is frankly incomprehensible. How could you conceivably think that in those circumstances you deserved to keep the ring?

Have you heard of Narcisstic Personailty Disorder or psychopathic personality? I don't know you, nor do I make quack internet diagnoses but Googling the terms may provide you with some interesting reading that might or might not be useful when considering how you and your family deal with others.

As for hinting that the problems were to do with 'MH issues' because your wife takes ADs. Well - all I can say is that at least she is doing something to take control of her mental health.

Let her keep the ring and learn to feel shame.

Slambang

Exactly what Slambang and Jux said.

FreckledLeopard i keenly remember your original wedding thread. i know the exact type of man you are dealing with here. a narcissistic, misogynist manchild.

sadly SA is full of this sort of man... lots of lovely ones, but also lots of eejits of this type. they tend to grow up in families where they are waited on hand and foot, and it never occurs to them just how pitiful they are because Mamma is always there to worship the ground they walk on.

OP, i hope that at least on some level you feel embarrassed by how pathetic you are being. though if you can pull the kind of shenanigans you did over your wedding, i doubt that you are able to look honestly at yourself when you are in the wrong...

Ok, I've read both this post and the other.

My opinion is.... STBXDH is a dick. He's a dick that can't even see what a huge massive stupid dick he is.

Freckled, I want to be your best friend. You sound wonderful. Delt with all this bullshit with grace and decorum. Good on you

Hope the OP is still reading.

I think she should keep it but should pay the balance off.

Sorry Freckled Leopard - didn't read whole thread! Keep it & sell it to pay off your costs!!

Surely she shouldn't be handling the legal stuff for your divorce that sounds v dodgy. Tell her you aren't signing it and get an independent lawyer to draw up any legal documents or at the very least take her documents to your own lawyer.

Completely agree. To me, this is of more immediate concern than the issue with the ring.

Legally, the ring is hers.

Personally I think if you choose to take debt out to buy someone a gift, more fool you, and she should keep the ring. (That would be my ruling if I were the judge)

But for peaceful life, selling the ring to pay off the debt does sound sensible. Then you can both have a completely clean break, as if nothing ever happened, and no one benefiting more than the other.

HerBigChance, you might want to read <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1288707-Got-married-a-week-ago-we-are-no-longer-speaking-twww.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1447797-DDs-mates-dad-assaulted-her-mumo-each-other" target="_blank">this thread - it is the wedding of the stbxW as posted by her at the time. Then read FreckledLeopard's posts (for it is she).

Mind you, if I were the woman in this, I would have already sold the ring.

And there we go- other side presented and so-

Freckled - regardless of what happens with the ring (I stand by my comments for the situation presented but not for the real situation presented), you are well out of dealing with pathetic OP and his shitty family- no wonder there were 'blended family issues' you couldn't run fast enough in the other direction!!

Looking at things OP even if you do have the ring you will still be an arse so it's cold comfort really.
I thought the MH issues you referred to were your own. Turns out I wasn't too far off the money, it's just you that can't see it.

Freckled I wouldn't bother even trying to be amicable with this pack of dogs. You have dealt with everything with amazing good grace and I can only hope you continue in your success and that you don't have to deal with them.
You are lovely and would have been entirely wasted on him. Best of luck for your next steps.

"I intend to remain friends with her but I know my friendship will be determined by her attitude to this issue."

For this reason alone I think freckled has a moral obligation to keep the ring - else she might be saddled with his friendship.

OP you are a greedy, grasping chancer.
Freckled, best of luck & I wouldn't bother trying to stay friendly with this man. He's not and never has been your mate - in any sense of the word.