To think DH should be able to control his temper and not smack DCs when he is angry?

[xeno]

I know I'm not perfect. I spent several years with severe PND so bad I felt DCs shouldn't be left alone in my company. Gradually I have climbed out of my hole and had them for longer periods by myself and am now taking on much more housework and childcare and beginning to be a proper SAHM. Unfortunately I also have fatigue and pain which I am battling to overcome and currently I have some "normal" weeks but am still incapacitated some of the time. We still have a child carer three days a week and a cleaning lady and help from parents&MIL.

But all this has taken its toll on DH. TBH it would help if my parents didn't come round (whole other story) because they are stressy so I am trying to get up in mornings (my worst time) so DH not alone with DCs at breakfast/school run. But I do play my part during day with DC2, after school, cooking meals, evenings, bedtime routine, housework, organising paperwork, banking, etc. and we both do childcare at weekends. but when I am ill I do have to go to bed. Usually for a few days during which the entire house gets trashed.. I have learned to control my temper and now deal (IMO) very calmly with tantrums and stressful situations and keep my temper.

But When DH is angry (most of the time) he smacks DCs for being annoying, or really minor naughtiness. I think he is out of order. He thinks it is because he is under so much pressure. I try to take pressure off him by looking after DCs so he can have a few hours to do his own thing by himself, and he then tells his DM that he has "done everything" and is very stressed and tired because he "hasn't had any rest". I am pissed off that even though I have been getting better and have been much better for last 5 months (apart from physical illness) he seems to be getting worse. Sorry this has turned into a huge rant!

He is also getting road rage and driving too fast when he gets cross. 60mph may be legal but not safe on narrow country roads when horses and cyclists could be round corner. I am really unhappy when he does this with us in the car and my requests to slow down go unheeded. Today a road was closed and he was stuck behind 4x4 on very narrow back road . Once he overtook and was back on normal country road he did 60, slowing down to 50 on bends then speeded through a village with no pavements at 40 when speed limit is 30mph. We were only driving about 5miles, what is the rush?

He has been mostly very good with the DCs today but DC1 spontaneously said to me this morning that "daddy is the naughtiest because he hit me when I was little and I hadn't done anything". At least he knows it isn't his fault, but if he says that to a teacher...? I'm not sure it matters that he isn't leaving a mark. When he acts so angry and frustrated and hits them without any warning for such minor things I think he has a problem and he may be controlling how hard he smacks but I don't think I can trust him not to make a bruise if he got too angry. I think it is the fact he is punishing for what I consider normal toddler behaviour (al be it a bit lively) that I would definitely not smack for and might not even consider naughtiness just unruly.

I don't know anything about GPs' obligations to inform the relevant authorities in this sort of situation, but - from the point of view of common sense - I don't think you are in danger of anything drastic happening. You are struggling with a chronic condition that impacts your ability to do day-to-day stuff, you have two very young children, and your DH is working full-time whilst also taking on huge amounts of parental duties, acting as a carer, and barely managing to make ends meet. The fact that, as a result, he has a very short fuse and is not a great parent at the moment should not surprise anybody. If social services removed children from families like yours, where it is easy to see how things like counselling and home help could make a world of difference, there would be public outrage, and social services would be even more reviled than they are currently.

Please, ask for help. You are clearly a loving and reasonable mother who is very open to suggestions about how to improve life for her children, and who has a proven track record of seeking help and advice to address her own shortcomings as a parent. Yes, things are far from ideal in your family. But, to me, nothing about your situation screams 'Get those kids out of there'.

If you really are afraid of confiding in your GP, what about calling the NSPCC anonymously and asking for advice? They will know more about the likely reaction of the authorities than any of us on MN.

I second calling the NSPCC - they are very friendly and approachable. I think your poor children are in a horrible situation, being smacked for normal behaviour is very confusing and damaging for them.

oopsie I think the risk of him doing any serious physical injury is extremely low. But he his hurting them (briefly) for very minor things or just because they are being annoying. I think we are back to the original question of whether he should be reasonably expected to control his temper and not do this? I think given the strain he is under that it is not that surprising that he is reacting this way, except that starting 4/5 months ago I have been playing much more active role and that should have allowed him to relax a bit but it hasn't. He has said that he can't relax until he knows I am completely better and not going to get worse again. Unfortunately I have been physically ill quite a lot in last 20 months, so this means he still can't rely on me 100% of the time even if he could trust that my mental health was ok. He has now admitted that he is emotionally drained and that the stress has got to him. I'm going to be very careful what I say when I see someone and make sure it is a level headed person who will not freak out. Maybe they will tell me that this is ok (disclosure wise) but start treating DH for stress/depression/anger whatever they think appropriate. As I said in an earlier post, my own experience of growing up was with a really very angry frustrated father that I was scared to ever upset. Other adults were scared of my father if they saw him lose it!

DH is not as bad as my father but I'm not hugely confident in assessing if DHs behaviour is normal or too much because i don't have any other experience. I have been thinking about it all weekend and I think that at the moment he is loosing it very very quickly without warning and that he is hugely overreacting to little things. But I can't tell him that because he points out that I used to be the same and therefore have no right to judge him. I think he needs help and if this carries on my DCs are going to say something and we will have SS knocking. I would rather be the one to talk to them if it comes to that.

op said 'the risk is extremely low' meanng there is staill a risk...

no one is going to treat dh on your say so.
only he can seek treatment if he wants to change things.

if eh wont go with you tomorrow to GP and tell everything then you have to ask him to leave. until he has got treatment and help .

my ex p would drive madly before he completely flipped. it was wholly terrifying.
the longer you stay together like this the more risk of something awful happening either by accident or design .
the longer you allow him to stay around your DC the more risk.
you seem more worried about being caught out?
than by actually sorting out your dh and getting him away from your children until he can control his temper.

yes he "he should be reasonably expected to control his temper and not do this" - because many people have lots of stresses in their lives but they do not never ever take it out on their children. if he needs help for his stress then he ash to get that help.
if he wont you have to take action to keep him away from your children til he does. tell SS they will help you and help him.

to your DS your dh is every bit as bad as your father - all he knows is he keeps getting hit and he doesn't know why...how much worse can it be for 4 year old? i hope he does talk to his teacher and soon. without outside intervention something bad could easily happen soon

xeno, I don't think it's as simple as whether your DH is hitting the children hard enough to injure them. What if he catches one of them off balance, and he/she falls and injures him/herself: imagine the story unravelling at the hospital when the injured DC is asked about what has happened? What if your DH raises his hand (innocently) when you are all out in public, and one of your DCs visibly flinches, arousing the suspicions of others? I'm not trying to scare you, but there are all sorts of scenarios that could result in all this becoming public in an unpleasant way. Better that it comes out as a result of you volunteering the information calmly, in the context of pro-actively asking for help, than that it is discovered by others.

The more you say about your DH, the more I sympathise with him. Of course I don't condone his behaviour towards the children and the cat, but his reactions are predictable given his circumstances.

Perhaps you or he could ask for help in a way that does not directly mention his treatment of the children - have you explored the help available to him as a carer, for example? See e.g. www.nhs.uk/CarersDirect/guide/Pages/Guidetocaringhome.aspx also www.carers.org/getting-help

Taking advantage of whatever practical and emotional help is available to him as a carer could take some pressure off him, which in turn could give you both the breathing space necessary to address the parenting issues in a calmer manner.

I feel so sorry for your children.

you seem so worried that one of them will say something. I hope you are not putting this pressure on them too.

Your children are innocent and I hope one of them does say something.

even now you have stopped physically hurting them you still seem to think its ok if their behavior is bad enough. I honestly don't think you are capable of making this judgment.

SS will look more favorably on your situation if you ring them than if you are reported by neighbors and teachers.

help your children now, you say they are not safe with your parents, maybe they should go to your inlaws where they are out of danger from their home situation, it will give the pair of you chance to get your act together.

I hope you get this sorted, and your children are never harmed again.

Xeno it sounds like you have confidence in your GP & HV which is good. If you can't take the DC to the PIL because they are too busy, is it possible for DH to stay there for a few days? I really think he needs time away from the children.

I had a long talk with DH tonight. He spent some of it accusing me of lecturing him. I spent some of it crying and saying I felt his behaviour was because of the huge pressure I had put him under. It took a while but we mostly managed to be calm and talk rationally. He does admit he did smack DCs when angry without warning for minor misbehaviour. and that this was harmful to them. He so far is continuing the line that all parents mess up sometimes and that i am a fine one to be telling him what to do. He is pretty hurt and upset that I have challenged his behaviour. he won't accept the term "abuse" as this is an emotionally charged word. He did feel very got at although I tried to raise my concerns as gently as possible and had to keep explaining myself as he threw up all kinds of defences.
But he is at least listening to me. He says he needs to think about what I have said and how he is feeling. He did mention some symptoms of depression and stress and I think he will probably agree to go to the docs at some point but he is not going to go tomorrow. I believe him on this one, he does generally listen to me but he has to think it out for himself before he will come to his own conclusion (which is usually the same as mine) and he doesn't like making decisions too quickly.

He wants me to do more than I am doing to take some (more of) of the strain off him but still can't tell me what would help him be able to actually let the burden off his shoulders. He did acknowledge the recent change in my behaviour with DCs (my parenting style and generally doing a lot more) but said that it was not enough and that he really needed a proper break. I suggested me going away asap with DCs for a few days or him going off for a few days but he was afraid that this would be too much too soon for me and that I would be ill by the end of it and he'd be back in charge of everything again. There is some truth in that.
He is obviously keen to avoid outside help and wants to see what we can do ourselves. I think I won't tell him about seeing HV or GP until after I've seen them because he will think I am rushing into things and talk me into delaying.

I hope I have not encouraged DCs to keep this a secret! It would almost be a relief if DC1 said something because then it wouldn't be my fault if SS got involved. DHs family are really convinced that SS are the spawn of Satan and TBH I had adopted a very negative view of them based on this but also sadly with my own first impressions of the ones I have met. But I suppose I was set up to see them in a bad light so whatever they said I would take the negative interpretation.

Originally when We decided a discipline strategy for DS1 we agreed that it was not good to smack at all ever for any reason BUT that we would smack as last resort in order to keep a very young child safe from a far worse injury if no other form of discipline was enough. DC1 was an incredibly difficult baby, very forward in physical development, very hard work, very very demanding 24/7. I'm not trying to winge here, he really was like that and every health professional I saw said he was a hard work baby. But it meant that as he grew and developed and asserted his character it got harder and harder for us to discipline him or keep him safe and gradually our standards slipped.

DS1 is such a strong willed character I honestly think the best parent in the world would have resorted to a smack at some point just to stop him hurting himself! I have been asking myself when is it acceptable to smack a child as a discipline and I am coming to the conclusion that it is.bad parenting to smack at all for any reason, but that a smack on the bottom is permissable if the likely alternative is a serious burn etc. But this is only really applicable to really little toddlers before you can talk to them. Once they are old enough to rationalise I don't think it is right or helpful to smack for any reason and this is where we have messed up as a family and i regret that we have continued to use smacking past that age. Others may disagree but I hope that I am sounding rational. Got to go now I am falling asleep as I type!

Sounds like you have a good plan, OP, about who to phone for help. I'll just add that I found SS very helpful when we were struggling with family illness, they didn't do much iyswim, but they knew about the kind of help that was on offer locally.

I do think smacking is acceptable as a form of discipline. However, not at all in your case. You have to see it in the context of the harm you did to ds1 when he was small. You need to stop saying 'he is hard work' 'he is annoying' 'he is a handful' and everyone needs to stop harming him.

Driving dangerously fast to frighten you and not slowing down when you tell your dh you are frightened; and possibly putting you all in danger is a common behaviour of abusive men

ALso, I dont think it is fair of your dh to say that he cant relinquish responsibility even now you are better and even if he is in another room. This is putting an incredible amount of pressure and guilt on you. He should go out. Why doesnt he trust you? does he think you still might harm the kids? If he does believe that then it needs to be addressed.

To me there is a bit of an undertone, of him maybe resenting you becoming well and him wanting to be in control. Maybe subconsciously? Maybe he has become so used to his role, that he doesnt know how to share the parenting and responsibility? maybe I am completely wrong

You all really really really need some intervention at help

just a question for OP? reading between the lines, havent read all the thread but did you suffer with Puerperal Psychosis with DC1?

"He is obviously keen to avoid outside help "

not obvious at all.
you are or have been very ill .
your DH is not coping/.cannot cope.
of course you need outside help .

Sorry, bejeezus, but I completely disagree that 'there is a bit of an undertone, of him maybe resenting you becoming well and him wanting to be in control'. This is an over-dramatic, soap-opera interpretation of what is going on, which is not helpful at all. What makes you come to this conclusion, and isn't there likely to be a more mundane explanation for whatever makes you think this? It sounds to me like his reasons for wanting to remain in control are more related to his worries about OP having a setback if he relinquishes control, which could make things even worse for the whole family. OP has said as much: ' I suggested me going away asap with DCs for a few days or him going off for a few days but he was afraid that this would be too much too soon for me and that I would be ill by the end of it and he'd be back in charge of everything again'.

xeno: 'He wants me to do more than I am doing to take some (more of) of the strain off him but still can't tell me what would help him be able to actually let the burden off his shoulders'. Perhaps he views the act of having to decide what would improve things as yet another burden of responsibility for him. He might be fed up of making decisions. Would it be possible for you to be a bit pro-active and try to work out for yourself how to lighten the load? I agree with you that he is the best person to tell you how to do this, and you were right to ask him, but perhaps - from his point of view - deciding on a new plan of action is yet another headache, and in a way it might be easier just to continue in the same old routine. If he wants help but doesn't know how to (or want to) articulate what would help, it sounds a bit like he wants someone else to come in and take the upper hand.

Also, you said, 'It would almost be a relief if DC1 said something because then it wouldn't be my fault if SS got involved'. So, you do want SS involved? Why not call them yourself but explain to them that it would make life difficult for you if your family knew that you had made the call, and ask them to keep it confidential? As I've said before, I'm sure they'd look more favourably on a parent who asks for help and thereby shows willingness to improve, than on a parent who gets reported, having done nothing about an unacceptable situation.

Following on from my suggestion that you could try to decide how to help your DH pro-actively, my DH often does this and it's a huge help. Sometimes, when I've been a jibbering idiot about something, he's just quietly taken practical steps to try to improve things. They're not always things that, in retrospect, I would have chosen as ideal, but just having him take action without me having to think about it is a huge help. It makes me feel looked after, and that he's someone I can depend on. So, perhaps even if you made some changes without worrying about what he will think of them, it would improve things.

Also, have you considered that he might want SS involved too, but is afraid to admit it? You have said that his family have very strong anti-SS views, so perhaps his awareness of this makes him reluctant to ask for help. An anonymous call could be the answer to both of your prayers: SS would intervene and give you the help you need, and both you and your DH would be able to moan to his family about the horrible anonymous busybody who made the call :o

yeah maybe monster its not always a clearly defined boundary between not wanting to relinquish control because of his worries and not wanting to relinquish control because he wants to be in control. It was mostly the driving dangerously despite protests from OP that set my spidey-senses off.

I am very very far from being prone to over dramatisation btw and I dont watch soap-operas

I think everyones input is useful; bandying around a myriad of opinions/insights/experiences is what makes MN so valuable IMO. OP will take what rings true for her. I havent forcefully pushed my opinion onto her

OP, I am still trying to get a clear picture of what is going on in your house. If your DH occasionally smacks your children as discipline, perhaps more frequently than you would like and in response to typical childish behavior, then I think that is something that can be resolved between the two of you. Kudos to you for raising the subject and talking it through with your DH, though I imagine that truly resolving the issue will probably take more than one discussion.

However, if you think that your DH is genuinely being abusive to the children, and they are living in fear (as your first post indicated), then that is something else entirely. In that case, some outside help would be not only useful but mandatory, IMO. Only you know what the dynamics and climate are truly like.

I appreciate that you have all been through some extremely stressful times. I can understand how your DH might feel as though the weight of the world is on his shoulders. That is absolutely no excuse for taking out his frustrations on the children. But I can see that for him, the past few months when you have been feeling better aren't enough to erase the previous years of stress and anxiety. He may be waiting for the other shoe to drop, expecting that everything will revert back to the dreadful times when you were at your lowest point. I doubt that would be conscious on his part, but his anxiety about leaving the children alone with you implies that he does not fully believe in your recovery quite yet.

BTW, from this distance it doesn't sound to me like your DH is experiencing true road rage. Driving 40 mph in a 30 mph zone doesn't seem excessive to me. Where I live that would be considered the norm, if not a bit slow! :) I do understand that it can be frightening if you think the driver is going too fast, especially if your little ones are in the car. But again from my perspective, your DH's driving habits wouldn't cause me any concern.

Thanks for your suggestions and advice, everyone.
I got an appointment with my own GP but it is not until next week so I also asked to see health visitor when I went into surgery to get DCs medicine today. Unfortunately my HV wasn't there today (off sick) and I really don't know the other one at all but she offered to text my HV and also wrote message for her to ring me.
So I should get a call in next few days or if not I see GP in 7 days.

I had another long chat with DH tonight and he really opened up about how he is feeling. As well as coping with me for last few years he has had another big emotional upheaval in his life that resolved itself quite suddenly this March, so he also had a lot of stress from that which was suddenly not there any more. I think he has been used to being on high alert 24/7 for a LONG time (starting before he met me) and now it's gone he is able to stand down and relax. But either he can't let go of the stress and relax, or all the suppressed stress of lots of years is all coming out at once, or his brain IS more relaxed but his flight or fight response is so sensitive because of being constantly over stimulated that now it goes crazy if there is the smallest trigger??? I don't know, I'm guessing here...

The way he described it is like a car with a brake/dampner? on the accelerator so when you rev the engine it would only go so far, but now the brake thing (sorry I was tired!) is gone and a little touch on the accelerator pedal and the car revs up to maximum really quickly. So when kids annoy him he jumps straight from mildly bemused to totally frustrated and angry with them. I wonder if that is like PTSD? He also mentioned today that he has had some panic attacks recently. I was surprised because he hasn't had any for a long time and he always used to tell me! He is also not remembering things. He says he needs time to think about how he feels and work out what is going on in his head before we can about it. He was ok about me contacting HV but he was a bit upset that I didn't ok it with him first!

I think he is a bit unsettled when I do something that he doesn't agree with. Most of the time we agree on things and I do act on his behalf and make decisions for him in some matters (like moving some savings into a better interest account for him because he doesn't have time to check the rates) and then tell him what I have done. But usually anything important we would always discuss first until we reached agreement. Usually we both think the same way and we agree and are happy with decision, but sometimes we disagree and usually when that happens I let it go and let him decide. No fighting or anything, i just don't push my idea if he is not happy with it.

Something really little happened a few weeks ago where we disagreed about something and I decided to do what I wanted to do instead of following his advice and doing what he suggested. I just disagreed with him and made a decision based on what I thought was right. It didn't even affect DH at all. It actually turned out that he was right and I was wrong and I said so afterwards and apologised for not listening to his advice. But he won't let it go. He seems to be quite offended that I ignored what he wanted me to do and did my own thing even though he didn't want me to. But the thing we were disagreeing about was so incredibly trivial and really didn't matter so I am completely gobsmacked that he is still going on about it. It makes me wonder if he only sees my opinion as valid or as important as his when it is in accordance with his. I am trying to remember other times when we have disagreed about stuff and I think I usually just drop it and don't tell him if I disagree. So he was a bit shocked that I refused to listen to him and did my own thing, but I am quite horrified that he thinks it is ok to expect me to value his opinion more than my own

What I think, OP, is that you grew up with an abusive father so you have picked an abusive man for a partner. Quite a lot of what is diagnosed as 'pnd/depression' in women is a natural response to living with an abusive man. Your last post is all about how you have to obey him or he becomes angry, and how he always gets his own way.

I think your mental health would be greatly improved if you got rid of him.

I think Kitchen's post is spot on. Is this about the children or about your relationship? You say he smacks them "more than once a week" and does not leave a mark. That is not really a problem, especially as he is doing most of the childcare. It is certainly not equivalent to your smacking and pinching a tiny baby. Lots of parents occasionally smack lightly in frustration and it is a non issue. Children need real parents and not ideal parents and, as long as he loves his children and would never actually hurt them, this smacking thing seems to have been blown out of proportion. Ditto the "road rage". He goes 60mph on a road with a speed limit of 50/60 and 40mph on a road with a speed limit of 30mph. So far, so normal. That is just not road rage. Do you drive yourself? Are you a confident driver?

So, what is really going on and what are the issues? Is this an issue concerning your children or an issue concerning how you and your partner relate to one another? I think you need to be clear on how hard and how often he is smacking your children and whether they really resent him for it. Can you clarify the above please, so that people can post helpfully without second guessing what is going on?

It doesnt matter, exactly how fast he is driving, it doesnt matter if OP is a nervous passenger; if OP is scared by her partners driving and expresses that to him, what kind of man would not slow down and continue to frighten her???

you really think smacking kids once a week is ok?? (do you smack your kids once a week?) in the context that the ds has been hit and pinched as a baby? Whilst the mother is protesting that she thinks the children shouldnt be smacked-is it really ok for the man to carry on hitting them regardless?

Bejeezus,

I am not going to enter a smacking debate with a vehement anti smacker but you ask RL parenting experts whether the occasional not very hard smack is damaging to a child, 90% will say that it is not. And the person delivering the occasional smack is NOT the ex abuser, the OP is. If her husband has been consistent throughout, his children will not fear him.

And did the OP say she was scared by his driving? Or did she just mention "road rage".

A lot of this thread is very open to interpretion and many posters have mentioned that the OP has not been at all clear about what is actually happening.