Have a go at Dadslib.... ...pillock!

[dadslib]

Message withdrawn

Of course the reaction this man is getting is different from if he was a woman. He is, presumably, more physically powerful than his wife and slaps her and pushes her. He starts the hitting and can't see why she's frightened but he's sick of getting treated like a naughty schoolboy? Oh poor guy... What a crock. Frankly, I'm genuinely astounded to see so much sympathy for him on this thread. What on earth happened to sisterhood? Look back over every domestic violence thread ever on mumsnet and read the advice there- men hitting women is a great fat no-no. Full stop.

Dadslib- by your violence you are harming your wife and your son. Accepting that fact is the first step to deciding what to do. I think it is quite, quite clear from your posts on this thread that you have barely begun to grasp that very basic fact. You are, therefore, certainly missing something here. A great big something- "no sex" and "doesn't talk to me" don't even come close to valid reasons for your actions because there are no valid reasons for your actions. Go to your anger management classes with that thought in your heart and never, ever forget it and your marriage might stand some chance, if you're extremely lucky. Your wife must either love you very much or feel totally trapped and I'm certain that if she had posted for advice the majority of mumsnetters would be urging her to leave you.

Scrummymummy, I well may get shot down for this but here goes. I have seen us MNers be very supportive and sympathetic of (1) a mother who admitted that she subjected her 7year old ds to abuse over a long period of time - definitely a case of a more powerful adult and a much less powerful child (2)mothers who are alcoholics - and applaud them for cutting down their drinking to only 1 bottle of wine a night, or only three nights per week etc (3) not pass any comment to a mother who admitted to putting her 2week old baby into full-time child care and returning to full-time work. And I am sure if I had been participating in MN longer I could site more examples. I think in all these cases we have followed the - it is human to err, and at least they admit they have a problem and are seeking help (if only from MN in some cases), or in the latter case - 'each to their own'.

So here is DL, seeking our help, admitting he has a problem, admitting that he should not hit his dw, seeking help from medication and anger management classes and still getting shot down in flames with no one even giving a thought to the old 'it takes two to tango' argument. Perhaps dw could support him to control his anger knowing that he is getting help, and trying not to let things escalate.

The treatment screams double standards to me. Sisterhood - just because we are he same gender? What about the woman in Australia who killed 4 of her children over a period of years and has just been sentenced to life in prison - should we feel sisterhood with her?

Just to make it clear. I have been a victim of domestic violence (and the trauma of following it through the justice system). I do not find violence directed towards family members - or pieces of furniture of electrical appliances acceptable.

This couple have been together a long time and have a baby and so I believe that there must be something there worth fighting for and worth giving our support to.

Dadslib read most of this thread. I think you and everyone else here knows my views on domestic violence so all I can advise is that you need help. Try and find some kind of course that helps you deal with this issue and control your temper/hands etc towards any women.There are domestic violence courses for men out there (they are hard to get but worthwhile)you will see things from a different prospective.

Now the reason I said women above is that if you and your dw do split up it will not happen in your next relationship????

I think you have given some good advise here on these threads especially the ss one. I think it is about time you took some of your own advice and either sort you marriage out or walk away (as amicably as poss)
If you dont love her or fancy her what is the point in staying in a relationship that makes you feel this way???
Dont ever stay for your child as that is when even more resentment builds up in the relationship.
If you want your marriage to work get out of the rut and make life different instead of the same old boring routine.
Whatever you decide it is YOUR choice.Just try and get on a dv course.

BTW what has the Iraq war got to do with this subject-very insensitive if you ask me.

I was thinking about this for a while this morning (waiting for reluctant 2yo to go back to sleep at 5am)...

Dadslib: have you spoken to DW, any progress?

What I wonder about is why does Dadslib DW provoke? Does she get a lot of anger out during these confrontations, esp. when they turn physical? Anger that she can't otherwise express because Dadslib is a dominent personality, or anger from frustrations in the rest of her life? How did her parents relate? Did they beat up on each other? Is is something safe, maybe it confirms a poor self-image for her? Does she think that Dadslib is the best she can do, & it's too much hassle to try to change the relationship -- 'course, I haven't a clue what she thinks or feels, but you can't solve your joint problems by yourself, Dadslib. It sounds like DW is fundamentally not as motivated to get out of this rut as Dadslib is. Maybe because it's safe & familiar.

I don't have enough time to reply properly right now, AussieSim but I honestly think there has been a difference in kind between the cases you cite and this one- that being that dadslib has NOT posted a message saying "I'm violent and want to stop" but one saying "I'm in an unhappy marriage, what shall I do? By the way I hit my wife but there are reasons- namely no sex and she doesn't talk to me- so I don't really see what all the fuss is about."

My concern is that he has totally failed to grasp that hitting his wife is absolutely wrong because it is an abuse of his power as the stronger partner and it frightens her. If I'm wrong about that I'm sorry, but it is based on reading the posts he has made on this thread. I'm afraid that I think change must be predicated on accepting responsibility- until dadslib realises that by using violence he is harming his wife and son there is no possiblility of moving forward, IMO. People who have posted about alcoholism in the past and the woman who was treating her child harshly posted pleas for help based on their own total acceptance of being the main cause of serious problems and I do think that makes a profound difference. At present it seems to me that dadslib thinks he is embroiled in a battle of equals with his wife; he does not seem to think that hitting her constitutes a serious problem. Unless he is very bad at describing his home situation and his posts are inaccurate I would strongly disagree with him there.

Message withdrawn

I think Scummy has summed it up very well.

DL, I know it must feel that we're all picking on you. I honestly don't think we are. But I don't think we're being unnecessarily 'bogged down' or 'distracted' by the violence issue - we're trying to point out how significant it is.

I know I could hit out at my kids a horrible lot and take things out on them when I'm tired and fed up and run down. I do acknowledge that but I feel horribly ashamed of myself even for owning up to it. That's why I have a no-hitting rule for me; it is totally taboo so I don't breach it.

Dadslib sorry but you really sound like a control freak IMO.
The washing up liquid not being put back I mean ffs no wonder your marriage is on the rocks.If my dh said that to me I would shove it up his arse.I think she was being very patient saying it was trivial.

Have you got a compulsive obsessive disorder???
It is a serious question btw???

On the contrary Dadslib, I have a very flexible approach to life in general. A very lovely DH and two wonderful children. I don't attempt to control them or to assume to tell them how to live their lives, instead I seek ways in which we can live in harmony together.

This sometimes means distracting rather than confronting bad behaviour - sometimes, rarely, I lose my temper. If I do I always see it as a failure on my part that I haven't managed to communicate effectively. I don't like shouting at my children or my DH so I don't. I really, honestly have probably only shouted at the children a couple of times ever, I have never shouted or raised my voice to my DH, and he has never raised his voice or shouted at me. Why would we, we love and respect our differences. He is not me, I am not him.

Where I am inflexible in our house is that I believe all of us should have respect for each other and listen to each others points of view. Happy for these to be debated robustly but no raised voices and no mud slinging. I am equally inflexible about the children hitting each other. As soon as any hitting starts the children are immediately sent off for time out.

Dadslib what you have to realise is that not everyone has the same standards as you. There are probably a lot of "little" things that bug your wife that she doesnt say about. Have you ever tried anger management or counselling? If not then dont knock it until you have tried it as that just smacks of "I cant be bothered or I dont care enough". If you really want to save your marriage then you should be prepared to try whatever you can to do that.

I had really bad depression following my first daughter and no doubt provoked my DH a lot (well I know I did as I took all my anger out on him) but NEVER in all that time did he lay a finger on me.

You need to deal with or learn to cope with your childhood issues before you can ever hope to have a happy relationship as from the sounds of it they will always be there in the background. Please dont let this continue, think what sort of message it will send to your children as they grow up.

Maybe your wife is sending you a message when she threatens to leave, that she has had enough of your violence and wants you to do something about it, unless you get some help I doubt very much that you will be able to do that. Good luck.

I don't think Dadslib DW sees the physical fights as a big, central problem. And surely she is the one best placed to judge?

You do seem very het up about "trivial" things, Dadslib, but I see your point that you feel like she just won't compromise or try. Maybe she feels suffocated by your petty concerns? I think my husband must feel a lot like you. One of his particular bugbears used to be me leaving bureau drawers open by 1-4 cm (I kid you not). Drove him up the wall. Nowadays he's gotten over it. I definitely feel like your DW, sometimes, "This is the way I am, take it or leave it!" Now he leaves piles of sawdust on the conservatory floor in revenge (Sigh.... ).

Have you asked your DW what she would like YOU to do differently? Could you negotiate to each change one annoying habit for the other's sake?

Dadslib,
There are things that my dh does that totally infuriate me. Little things, trivial things, like never washing out the dog's bowl. It is ALWAYS me who gets left to do it. And countless other petty things. It used to make me quite resentful, but then I thought about all the things I do or don't do which are equally annoying to him. When you live closely with someone there are bound to be these little power struggles over stupid things, and minor things can cause major annoyance. Sometimes it is easier to focus on these trivia that it is on the far more important and tricky subject of the relationship itself. I don't know the answer, but do yourself and your wife a favour and lighten up a bit. You seem like one of life's over-anylysers. I can be like that too. But if you could find it in you to relax and accept eachother and enjoy eachothers idiosynchrasies a bit more, you may find that a start to getting your relationship back on track. Of course that demands a lot more time of sitting down calmly and doing as much true listening as talking.

When you have depression the "little" things do really bother you, particularly if you need to feel in control, instead of the depression controlling you.

3Girlsmum I agree
DL answered his own problems in his last post-his insecurity so now he HAS to be in control.These insecuritires have spilled into his adult life and relationships,he needs help.

DL - You could be describing my DH! He NEVER hang damp towels to dry. They end lying in a heap all day and smelling fousty!

Seriously thoough DL.... this is not an indication of how she doesn't listen to you....merely that she puts less importance on it than you. It took me a loooooong time and a lot of arguments to realise that is doesn't matter THAT much. Is it really worth a huge argument?

I started putting the damp towels on DH's side of the bed. He soon got the message and we had a laugh about it.

You do sound controlling and I know I am too.... DH will verify that.... if I tell him too ( ).

We do enough arguing about serious issues, why argue about trivial things too.

Agree with Scummy - both the other cases posted because they totally accepted they were doing wrong and wanted to stop.
I wouldn't want to have sex with someone who hit me and frightened me. I'd be very frightened indeed if my husband hit me - I don't understand why this is hard to believe. It is a very scary thing to have someone bigger than you hitting you. I don't hit and have never been hit in a relationship. I have quite a bad temper at times but I don't. And I would never consider that anything I said or did would make it OK to hit me. I hardly think this is unrealistic or absurdly principled! For me, it's the bottom line of a half-decent relationship.
Dadslib, you have to stop hitting your wife if your marriage is going to have any chance. And yes, you can stop if you really, really want to (and frankly, it seems to me that you actually don't want to stop that much). You see yourself as helpless in the face of provocation, but of course you are not. If it was your boss annoying you or a huge heavyweight champion with a hair trigger temper you wouldn't dream of hitting them, whatever the provocation, because you'd be mindful of the consequences - being fired or getting killed!
I think now might be a good time to go back to Relate if you want your marriage to change. After all you are now on ADs which is different to last time. IMO you also need to commit to no more violence and tell your wife that. I think you should apologise to her unreservedly for hitting her (but not with your usual long-winded justifications - ie:don't mention the war ) which may go a long way to healing some wounds.
You cannot go on like this. It is TERRIBLE for your son and you will damage him for life to some extent - he may even go on to be the kind of man who has awful, violent relationships himself. He deserves better. And I speak as a child of a bitter, angry marriage where my mother was quite frequently scared of my father. I am very happiily married but I still think I bear the scars of my childhood. In my parents case divorce earlier rather than later would have been by far the best thing for them - and me.
The first year of child's life is emotionally and physically gruelling for parents. Marital satisfaction does dip for many if not most people because you are tired, stressed, money is tight etc etc. Lack of sex is also very normal. I think you should accept this as the effect of circumstances on your relationship. As to whether you and your wife should split, I think that's an issue to discuss in counselling. But I do feel certain that you cannot go on as you are. For your sake, for her sake, and most of all,for your son's sake.

Doormat, ROFL about the washing up liquid. It's exactly what I thought but would never dare post!

Thanx ks I didnt know which way round it was.

You've got to try and let the little things go Dadslib. It winds me up no end that DP takes his socks off when watching TV in th evening and then just leaves them there and goes to bed!!!! It used to drive me mad, and still does a bit sometimes, but everyone has something that will drive you mad - that's life too. Now I try and just think it's amusing that he's done it agian and I either leave them until he does take them to the wash bin or I just pick them up when I'm clearing up and don't worry about it. Nobody will ever fit perfectly into your life and never do anything to irritate you so get over the damp towels man!!!!! Break the cycle - start acting as if you like and respect her and being generally a nice guy and she'll hopefully soften in return and you never know you may actually begin to remeber how to love each other again.

My sister has awful OCD which has over the years got worse and worse so that we're lucky if she gets down the stairs / out of her room / bathroom.
So if you do feel you have OCD tendandcies Dadslib, or anyone, I'd be more than happy just to chat things over with you.

Dadslib i am a clean freak and my dh is the winner of the "slob" of the year award every year so I do know how frustrating it is living with someone with different standards.
If he leaves dirty towels but he always leaves his festering clothes lying around, I have learnt to leave them where they are. He soon moves his dirty gear into the basket when he is running out of clean clothes.
It is something not worth rowing over.