Welcome to the Turning Tavern III

[Crushinghard]

A continuation of the TTII thread for women unexpectedly finding themselves attracted to other women.

if she always stands with a teacher when you collect than she wouldn't think you were deliberately pursuing as she you know she would not be standing alone, so she nay well have thought you were asked by a friend to collect. So while she may be showing lacvk of interest, don't be humiliated as she doesn't kow for sure whether yo uhad a choice or asked by a friend. I will say it again - it's not humiliating to feel things - some people aer proud of it and shout on every corner, you've been very mild and careful with it, but honestly there is no shame in having feelings (I should tell the same to myself regarding my wiq as I also sometimes feel guilty of feeling things - but when yo ulook at another situation it's ridiculous as it's so clearly no crime, even flattering to whomever it is directed at).

just imagine how someone more confident would feel in this situation - again I'm doing this now myself as I don't like the fact that I'm awkward about how I feel - even if it's not reciprocal they would be content that these feelings aer genuine and it's a gift, then it's only a question whether it's wanted or not, but a confident person would still not feel GUILTY of imposing and would hold their head high, of course if they have not been demanding anything. Maynbe this would be also more likely to win someone over btw.

glad you aer back on thread outmy! I was worried yest that you were so upset that won't come back at all. Thank God today you sound a bit more levelheaded in the sense that you haven't done anythiogn awful at all, and for all she knows you were asked bu a fruend to collect the kid, so she could at least have been civil - no one is asking her to be interested if she's not, but she could ve been polite as you don't engineer these situations enough for her to be pissed off. I think she probably isn't interested as she is involved with someone, there is a tiny chance that she doesn't want to talk to you in front of other teachers in case they notice something in your body language or hear the words and then she's be teased about it - it's not very mature nbut that's the only thing that may still mean she has been attracted (if not now then before). Tbh she shoud have told you in black and white if she's in rel-ship now.
It hasn't really put me off from the point of view that I'm not too otimostic anyway but the hope will remain until I find out for sure regardless of anything! I saw her briefly on Mon andshe was very busy and unusually stressed with work issues (nothing disastrous but much more to do than usual) and again someone was around (I'm so fed up that there is ALWAYS some people/person at her place! those are golder moments when it's just us and she's not stressed- haven;'t been recently like that). On top of it her child is staying and although he's well grown up he leaves it all to her to do a lot of tidiying and his washing! even though she has lots to do. Anyway chat was ok but the way it was ther was no intimate atmospere - at times like htis she ooks to me like there is absolutely nothing there towards me, even though I think now that she guessed that I'm attracted as there was just a hint of ironic smile in her expression (you know, hard to describe, sort of 'that's amusing') so nothing good really. I will see her properly on sunday (unless again she's occupied with someone) - it wont be a big speech as you know I'm planning a letter (not long either) but I do want to give it a chance on Sun just in case she'll be alone and in good mood first. The way I'm nervous it will never be a big speech - might be even a question instead. I am put off in a way as I read your story and know that I can be humiliated too but tbh I'm sort now getting annoyed with myself for not being confident - so I'm thinking it's NOT humiliating 'i.e. well I care for you, it's hardly a crime, but shoot me if you want' kind of devil may care a bit. It could of course be very bad if her reaction os worse than i think, but I think she would at least be reasonably nice.

oh yes, of course it's horrid! I'm preparing myself already to feel like you aer now feeling as I already imagined recently (when she was off with me) how it would be if she rejects me for good and how empty/dreadful i will feel. I think the extent would depend how she words it - I think yours is much worse in that she didn't botherrto be nice about it (apar from one chat which was nice but not sure whether it was for your benefit or ohter people), even the fact that mine is older gives me hope that she won't be as nasty (and not just age, she's genberally quite honest with people). I would be very upset though if I find out that she knew how i felt for a whgile and still didn't discourage me in a nice but direct way (if she is not interested) just to use me in practical way, That would be upsetting. It'd be also bad if she says she has some attraction but no way she'd act on it and to leave it be ([atronising and also quite tragic).
Yes, I say the same - your wiq encouraged you a lot to strat with and after note, maybe she enjoyed the power after the note - ew'll never know. Maybe she did feel something but it was short lived and then she was distracted by someone else - or a man appeared and she decide it was a silly fantasy (my wiq could be now doing same)! As i say sometimns people play with ideas of something risky/exciting but they prefer to just flirt and fantasise , not go through with it - so it may ne nothing to do with how you behaved. I really an annoyed with yout wiq that she never had a kindness and decency to explain to you what actually happened (the looks etc) and she is either immature or just not so nice - I'd be sympathetic if someone was tortured by feelings for me and would talk to them, but when I was in my 20s I was not so thoughtful at all and often just dismissed people, inevitably you learn that it's not the way to be!

the fact teachers may know that you aer gay - so what? if you aer planning to stick with it, yo uhave to get used to the idea that it's fine, and most people (younger at least) never judge someone for that.
A tpical example again with wiq and her evasiveness. Sent her text after last visit voicing my concern about her stress and that she should really be careful etc. And added 'hug' in a text, even though I ve never done it before (so it was noticeable). She replies 'thank you Likea, but it is stressful at times!' - sure;u if she was interested she'd comment on a 'hug' or could be braver abd said 'I'd like a hug, yes' - I wanted to add that next time i can offer a real onem but just didn't feel encouraged. I don't know whether I'm not bold ebough and should be much bolder as she doesn't like subtlety, or is it a sign of no interest? The thing is by now it's becoming quite blatant that she avoids replying to these comments as it's bee na pattern recently of that, and she must see that it looks like avoiding and yet doesb't want to say anything. Do you think thewre can be any positive explanaton?
thanks btw for wanting to know - I really relied on you recently asa also no one in rl to talk about it apart fr ,male friend (he's nothing like as patient haha - and he thinls it's all about sex, typical! couldn't further from truth).

well, her son lives abroad but visits sometimes and maybe she feels she needs/wants to indulge him as she prob misses him. He's still young but definitely could do the washing - when i came in it was actually on the floor like teenagers do - for anyone to see through half open door. I mean it's not a big deal but it does show she dotes on him. I'm sure you aer not in for that, as you have a dd!
When wiq ignores my hinty comments I always wonder whether they just come across as friendly and she doesn't want some twee exchanges on purely friendly basis. She used to say 'it's sweet of you' a lot to these, but she stopped doing it recently - strange. It's either htat she wants to prompt me to be really bold, or it's discouraging. Do you think these could come across as just friendly and that's why she feels wouldn't need careful responding? I'm not geberally 'sweet' though when i'm with her - I never hug/air kiss or say sweet things, though I do have an expressive face and also do tell her compliments sometimes (in a calm way) - she does look quite a bit at my expresssions iykwim, I feel like she does pay attention when we do talk rather than looks oblivious. Maybeit's this new man that's holding her nack? I escalated these comments when he appeared, or soon after.
It would be much less humiliating of she had feelings bt wouldn't act - I just hate to be cynically used (i.e. deliberately she wasn't direct so that i dangle while knowing what's going on). No, I meant that she may not be sure that I have feelings (I'm not always consisitent too, can be a businesslike sometimes) and because of htis didn't say anything - that's a positive option. If she has feelingg but won't act it's just so sad and upsetting but I could try and pursuade her, at least I wouldn't feel redundant/unwanted iykwim. If she feels nothing I'd prefer her to say that she noticed I'm keen but can't reciprocate (but again may be not SURE that she read me right). Really until i say something she probably wont be 100% sure, but she IS more experienced so she may see it who knows.
It's good that you aer annoyed at her now as yesterday was very upsetting that you were so unfair to yourself as if you commited some crime. Yes you ivercooked it a bit with saying that you are not after abything at all in your talk, but anyone understands that if a person felt something it's nbot going to just go, as far as they don't pressure/expect anything and yo didn't. You aer still very genuine, and you can't say that about her! Yes, it's s** for both to blow up, but my can be only in more than a week if I'm writing a letter next week - if she is very off with me this Sun and hints that she doesb't like my attention/texts then I won't write at all - it will still quietly blow up of course in this way. I still do think there is something but it has been less clear since dating of the man (and I'm pretty sure she sleepswith him - and it's also easy to get under influence of a man if sex is new and quite good). I do feel she became more 'polite' recently even though she feels like responding still in some way.

hi outmy! glad you aer doing ok more or less and thinking things through, better than just blaming yourself or being very depressed - I mean I knoiw I must be sad but at least you don't sound horribly depressed, though be prepared for ups and downs in your mood stl=ill to come.
I did bring up this option before (simnilar to your friend's) that I also think she did feel something to start with, as really she initiated it all as I remember, and there was a lor of deliberate signals. And I did say recently (maybe yo umissed it as at htat time there were lots of posters on here) that she may have seen this as a fantasy and enjoyed playing at it and tryig it on at a safe distbabce, but didn't want the reality when it came to it (or maybe never wabnted areality). Lots of people are like that when it comes to something experimental to them, they aer not sure and they just flirt etc but in the end don't feel like acting on it, it really happens all the time (but not usually in this 'play with someone's feelings' way she did!!). If she did feel strongly she maybe expected a strong intiative from you at that time and became annoyed when it didn't happen. It shows it was a play to her rather than feelings, as then she's be sensitive to you and more open , not just annoyed that you didn't act as she wanted you to. But she may never really felt strongly also, andas i say was mild curiosity. After that two things happened - either she got involved with someone and may be is seeing someone now (a man ior a woman), or she just comletely gone off the idea generally. I don't think anyone young these days would seriously ignore their gay identity if it was strong, they may be against being gay but it wouldreally take over eventually. Of course tere are bi people with a preference to one gender, in which case she could put on the backburner attractions to women if she is now with a man. We will never for sure, will we, but the point is I really don't think it's personal (your fault) because she had many chances t talk to you and didn't (after your approach) and gone into some weird mindgames which could be just a nasty power trip. The botom line is she is not interested now and she is possibly generally unbalanced emotionally etc. If she felt things but was generally scared she wouldn't be so calm and calculating and as you say, couldn't act so well - she'd try to avoid you and when she did give you looks they'd be very surrepticious and 'tortured'/sad. I wonder if this put you iff women or would you try to meet another woman when you are ready? I'm pretty sure that for me it's wiq or nothig as far as women are concerned as it's the combination of all qualities in her that made mefeel this, and also she's unmarried.

when i said 'feel strongly' when I was talking about your intiative, I meant 'did feel strongly about experimenting/curious to try', not as in 'in love', as if she was emotional she'd behaved with a lot more consideration to you.

I'm now less optimistic because she is seeing this man - why on earth did this have to start just as i was building up to the talk, and not for the last 9 months?? I was talking even in May that my plan was to tell her within June.. life's unfair. I can't imagine that someone who's in a fresh sexual stage with new partner would be responsive to anything else (at least it would be all on backburner until the new situation goes one way or the other). The fact she 's suddenly lost weight noticeably around hte hips is SuCH a giveaway of active sexlife (she was medium built before and now when I saw her in a summer skirt I gasped - she really thinned down within three weeks!). It could of course be just sex and a phase, but I'm not sure - they met through a mutual hobby so have things in common, and obv is she can be happy with him I can't be displeased, but I'm just thinking is this not a silly time to tell her before she knows what she wants from the man?

yes, you had your fingers burnt but there aer nice women out there, that's for sure! quite a few examples on the thread of women being in happy r-ships. Just never get involved woth someone who is not straightforward and open, as you aer not the type who can deal with it or understand it. I'm angry withe her on your behalf too - I really think she got away with bad behaviour and no one htere to tell her off , that you don't treat people like this when htey have genuinefeelings and put themselves on the line for you. She could hve been kind andexplained patiently if shereally had no interest, especially when you apologised, you'd think men wouldn't be good at it but a woman should be as they are more more sensitive! It's good that you have dd and can for mow totally focus on her if you are can't imagine being involved (but honestly you aer very young to give up on that!) as it'd bemuch worse if you were cpmpletely on your own.
My situation is a bit better from the point of view that I haven't spend years being emotional, even though it's 9 minths, but she was also good to me in other ways (practically etc) when i was going through stressful period of time what with moving to another place so I can at least say I got a benefit as she did from out acquiantance over this time, I don't feel taken for granted. But of course that still doesb't help the emottional emptiness I'd feel (and had the taste of when she was off with me) if nothing happens, as you say so mych emotuon andthought went into it, it 's bound to be very painful. I think I'd be even nore upset if she doesn't want t see me at all after this - this is why I've been dithering for so long.

that's the thing - I wish my gut feeling was clear one way or the other. Sometimes, the gut feeling is very strong that we belongtogether and I have to almost fight to stop the instinct to tell her or hug her. But at othertimes when she's off - alarm bells. So my feeling tends to depend on what she i s like with me at that time, which means it's not reliable! But it's very encouraging that you say given te choice between sex/friendship and wiq, you'd still go with hte deeper feelings, that's what I should tell myself, that if it's there she would still respond, and if not then it's nothing to do withthe timing/the man. I feel it would be wrong to wait much longer, that definitely DOES feel wrong, I could wait maybe couple of weeks max, unless as i said shewould give VERY strong off signals from now on (which would be is she is emotuonal about the man now), I 'll see howshe is tomorrow, after that I'm seeing her again in aweek so within these two meeting I will decide whether to tell/write - or if very bad vibes then I'll just leave it and will have to accept.

though the difference is, my wiq is not like you, as you very direct person who would go with her feelings, and wouldn't give a damn about social side/opinions. She is more difficult as would think a lot before doing something unusual/controversial publicly (and she's of the older generation) so she wouldn't PURELY go by feelings and jump at the chance to be with a woman, and add to that influence from a man who offers an alternative (maybe less exciting but still ok/satisfying ) she may decide to sacrifice her secret feelings/desire. I wish she was a more individualistic type - I'd definitely have told her by now.

btw I hope you looked away when she stared yesterday and you looked mildly annoyed, as she needs to see that you ar not there to humiliate yourself by jumping hopefully at her every gesture!

no, actuially i wanted to suggest that maybe you shoul tell her off (in a brief way) but didn't suggest as I thought you may not want to do it or need time to recover first. Thought you might say 'I'm never talking to her again or humiliating yourself' purely as you feel emotional now. But I think it's very good if you can!
You really think she knows I have feelings? God, that's scary! but then it's really bad as if she knew, wouldn't she say something already - either encouraging or discouraging so that I' don't keep hoping or keep giving her looks?? I'm not so sure she clearly knows though she can definitely think this may be the case. I suppose not a big surprise even if she's just wondering.
I don't know - it can be awkward for both of us to see each other after this to start with, I'm hoping we could 'get over it' but I would feel embarassed I will have to pretend I'm not and pretend that it's not a big deal. She may also feel not good rejecting me or that i fancy her, who knows.

no outmy, you confused two things about following your feelings subject! I'm all for going with the feelings especially when it's something as major as change of orientation and opportunity presents itself (an emotional connection or a possibility of one, /i mean, as sexual chances ae much easier to find). In your case there was NOT much to consider if wiq was responsive, it doesn't really matter that she was a teacher (after all you were prepared to wait 3 yrs for your dd to move!) - you could have been discreet and then if it developed into r-ship you would both have not cared if it came out as you'd know by then you had no choice and also it's now all over the place in the press, gay marriages etc - people would not be shocked. You only ended up with the egg on your face because your wiq hasn't had gebuine feelings, she may have been curious but not enough to act on it - or possibly she decided you aer not her type after all (maybe she wants someone else secretive andevious!). By your descriptions to be fair you are not the best match with her personality-wise (though to add not that she seems to be not a nice person, whereas you obviously are all heart). You aer both young and your kids are small so these kind of changes wouldn't have been that difficult. I mean even on this hread someone lived with her partner and still fell and got involved with a woman (and she had kids) and then was resolving all the issues, but she couldn't deny her true self. So obv your wiq's true self is not gay, or she got interested in someone elsemeanwhile. Social /work implications are much more relavant if people are older and/or they are in hig status job (not teaching!) purely because thei lives nd friends are all set and upsetting it means risking losing long standing friends and type of life and at this age building new circles aer diddicult. It's also how traditional people aer and where they live, and how open minded their families. As you say in the North it may be harder but here people aer quite relaxed about things generally, it's just my wiq is traditional and so are herfriends (all the ones I've seen) so she may well wat a sexual side but to keep it under wraps (even if emotions invioved too), and her kids aer grown up and for them to learn she nearly chaged her identity is awkward. I cansee why she would be very wary, even though it may work better than she thinks, it's stil la risk. You sound like you aer quite young and free and not in some snsitive type job. Teaches have to be careful a little like say they can't sleep around or get drunk frequently to hte knowledge of all, but to develop one gay r-ship of course they aer allowed. If she was against it she wouldn't have intiated things! so it's really not to do with you not following your head, it's purely lack of feelings fron her /change of mind /gameplaying. For all you know she might not be a teacher forever, they often shift to other jobs.