Living with dh bordeline personality disorder with narscissitic tendencies

[Mrswhiskerson]

Dh has been diagnosed with boderline personality disorder with narcissitic tendencies which explians a lot of his recent behaviour he is glad he has a diagnosis and feels enlightened as to why he behaves like he does and he wants to work on changing for the better.

I want the marriage to work and to be healthy so I was wondering if anyone has experiance as to how to deal with this and if anyone knows what treatment is available ?

I am sorry gettingagrip I did not see that . This thread is clearly acting as a trigger for me as it is occupying my headspace.

Off to walk in the sun.

OP I notice you are not doing much posting on here, we have a snapshot of your partner's history and not a very good idea of what's going on on a day to day basis. My concern is that your son is living through all this, and while you are busy battling for your own survival (as of course you have every right and need to), your son is suffering.

If you are going to spend any more time on trying to help your partner, I would urge you to do it at a distance. Tell him you want to move out, live apart, but not end the relationhip. That way your son is protected from the day to day confusion and your DP can feel less guilt about being a difficult person (or selfish prick as he so pertinently decribed himself!).

You don't have to give up on him, but you have to protect your son.

Out of interest, what happens when he has had a drink (you said he behaves badly), and what happened with your son - why did everyone blame you as parents?

Not a monster -

and please change your user name. How about something like 'courageous lioness'?

Not a monster - me too!

Not a Monster & weegie - it has been good to read your posts, i got a BPD diagnosis 18mths ago. My NHS Psychiatrist & psychologist both prefer the term 'Emotionally Unstable'; as it's an accurate description for me. I also got diagnosed with Chronic Major Depressive Disorder; that diagnosis was no shock, but i really wasn't expecting the BPD diagnosis, i'd never heard of it before. My parents don't (want to?) understand; but my sister & closest friends agreed with the diagnosis as soon as they read the description of BPD. I take ADs (an SNRI) & I'm on a waiting list for DBT.

To complicate life i've had Epilepsy since childhood (JME with Photosensitivity; possible TLE too). So i take high dose AEDs.
It's hard to accept a BPD diagnosis - i keep asking the Drs if maybe they're wrong.. but deep down i know that i do meet all the criteria, yes every single one :-(
The Epilepsy may be linked to the 2 mental health disorders.
I have short term Memory Loss too. So the Psychologist said the chance of recovery is low. I get BPD symptoms most days; i can go from happy to suicidal & back within hours. I'm constantly fighting the urge to carry out obsessive behaviours like self-harm & binge eating.
On the plus side I have a part-time job in healthcare, sadly i can't cope with full-time work. I'm very lucky to have a supportive group of family, good friends, colleagues & caring employers who value my work. I give a happy, confident impression to many, but in reality basic everyday tasks & living alone are a total struggle. I attract the wrong men too easily: players, married, addicts, & controlling types. So i'm very choosy as I'm aware i seem vulnerable (i look young & get called 'sweet' etc which is very irritating!!).

The scariest thing is that at times i get so irrational, with paranoia & psychotic symptoms. I may soon be prescribed low dose anti-psychotics.

I'm definitely NOT a Narcissist!! I enjoy caring for people & animals; i would love to have children in the future.

seaofyou yes i think what was once called "psychopathy" and now falls under APD is commonly believed to have a major "nature" component. and i believe that a large body of experts believe the same re: NPD. see garlicbutter's posts re "brain shape" etc

fwiw, once upon a time "malignant narcissism" (extreme N) was seen as a severe subset of psychopathy though... you might have read at a time when the two weren't perceived as v distinct from one another?

at any rate there are certainly similarities between APD/"psychopathy" and NPD. the lack of empathy, insight and a sense of the personhood of others being key really. and the extreme likelihood that no therapy at all would have any effect on sufferers.

and as others have said, this is all v much distinct from BPD, which is certainly treatable in many cases. and personally i believe that BPD behaviours are frequently learned. i don't think they're as "nature" as NPD and APD (but i'm no expert)

and yes, the worry i had after reading the OP was "BPD's all very well and good, that can be tackled, but N traits are the scary bit". the OP's subsequent post clarifies a bit: it seems the hcp is unsure about the N bit. that is encouraging.

also the OP's description of her H doesn't scream N to me. rather it says BPD quite distinctly. (tho obviously i am not a clinician and have not met OP's H...)

after reading your post Latara (and others) i would just like to say that i hope none of my posts have made anyone with a BPD dx feel alienated or judged.

i know some people with BPD and i've seen how hellish and difficult the disorder is. and i have seen some recovery, and i know from the literature that there are people who DO recover well.

anyone who's living with BPD and/or has recovered from it is a brave and admirable person in my book. we have muddied the waters considerably in this thread, conflating non-B PDs and BPD, and i hope to God that didn't make anyone feel sad. (i think it did, and that makes ME sad)

Where is this research saying that NPD has no nurture element? Everything I've read about it suggests that the person carries a deep sense of shame and inadequacy inside very often through being exposed to, at a formative age, highly critical and unforgiving caregivers or public scandal surrounding their family, or intense bullying etc.. To survive they fight this unbearable feeling at all costs, mostly through having to make everyone else wrong, through fantasising and, in adulthood, through unconsciously picking partners whose traits they want in themselves but then cannot bear prolonged exposure to these traits as it is a constant reminder of what they don't have so find themselves knocking their partners down too.

The Schema therapist, Jeffrey Young, who works with NPD certainly states that very few of the self-entitled will ever come through his door, and those that do often have done because they have come for couples work where they initially believe that their partner needs fixing. He has got through to some though if you read his work and their families confirm that the change is real and not that the therapist has been hoodwinked.

Let's not forget that BPD guidelines not so long ago were that it is untreatable and this got public health off the hook as they did not have to offer anything. Dedicated practitioners have worked hard to structure effective therapies for BPD and the success of their evidence based work has meant that DBT for instance, is being offered, if sketchily, by public health structures in many countries.

My psychiatrist has told me that it is a mixture of nature and nurture, however within dysfunctional families it is difficult to see where one starts and the other takes over . We have a shared genetic history and we have all been failed by our parents .

Agree totally with not a monster.

Why have you not changed your name yet? Of course you are not a monster!

My very elderly mother, the result of total neglect combined with being put on a pedestal and told she was the cleverest person in the universe, often tells me that 'that's normal in families' if I question any of her relationships with the rest of her family. Well it's certainly normal in hers! They all hate each other and any one else outside the family is beneath them.

My sibling has N traits, and other PD behaviours tending to the hysterical end of the spectrum.

My father was just impossible to deal with on any level, and I remember him often yelling at my mother 'you are insane'. Seeing it all so clearly now 50 years later, of course he was right!

And yet, miraculously, I seem to have escaped the curse and am normal! I can say that with authority after years of psychotherapy!

I think borderline PD must be very distressing for its sufferers as you are aware that something is not right. At least a narc has no self-awareness whatsoever, and so has no suffering in that regard.

It has been said that narcs can have short blasts of self-awareness during an acute crisis, and I have actually seen this myself. But they go back to 'normal' afterwards.

Our society rewards Narcissistic individuals, and so there is no prospect of it dying out any time soon. And as for a cure - well how would you ever know they are cured? Everything that comes out of their mouths is a pack of lies, designed to manipulate and keep their false self from toppling.

Some one asked up thread if MH professionals have this debate re nature/nurture/where on the spectrum/differing PDs and yes they do.

I think the brain is just so complex; there will be a lot more discoveries made in the future around neurology & psychiatry etc.
I did get depressed reading this thread last night but it doesn't take much tbh!
My lay opinion is that the OP's DH sounds like he has BPD, not NPD. Anger, aggression, addictions & unstable moods are usual; & i know that if i've upset anyone (or think i may have) then afterwards i feel so guilty like it would be better if i didn't exist. There are ways to learn to control your temper around others; i've managed to do that at work; although it's harder with family i'm making an effort. The problem is that sometimes my family members deliberately provoke me for whatever reason; i've had to explain how unfair & dangerous that is (which was not nice to discuss). It's important that i'm very aware of & admit to my faults - so it's frustrating that 'normal' people can get away with bad behaviour just because they don't have a 'BPD label'!

My daughter may be NPD (or whatever the new dx is) and it's not as easy as saying I'll walk away.

My husband (her father) was also NPD, as was his father. The similarities in their behaviour is uncanny. Her father had a terrible childhood but I know the childhood my daughter had (up to a point of course) and it didn't contain the horrors my husband's did. Dare I say it, she had a deeply loving, knowledgeable mother... who was mercilessly beaten into the ground by her wealthy father post-divorce, which was obviously very difficult for us all. Nature or nurture?

I was able to leave my husband without a backward glance - or at least in my heart. I can't do the same with my daughter. So I'll be watching this thread with interest. It has given me hope so far, up to a point. I like the idea that brains are maleable - that gives me hope, however unrealistically.

(What do we do with people with NPD? Does society get knowledgeable enough to recognise the signs, drop them like hot potatoes, so they get passed around endlessly? It's not as if there aren't many of them - this disorder seems to be dramatically on the increase.)

Your DH sounds reasonable to me OP. There is no way in a million years my ex would have said any of the things your DH is saying.

Springydaffs :(

My nightmare was that my DC would have the disorder. It is rife in my family and I don't know one member of their father's family who is untouched by it. Luckily the DC seem to have escaped, as did I. My theory is that at least one member of a family in each generation has to be without the disorder, so as to be able to organise the other's lives. All of my Ns carry on like two year olds, so there is a lot of organising and smoothing over to be done. It seems my DC got a large dose of my non-N genes.

Latara, my mother's family all wind each other up to a dangerous degree on purpose. I ask her why she does it and she has no idea. I find it childish, pathetic and cruel. They don't bother me as I don't give a damn what anyone thinks about me, and I can see it for what it is, but my sibling gets very wound up by it.

latara it is funny cause what you described was like (BPD) but not that one but BiPolar Disorder! Can you get second dx? Sometimes the manic psychotic state isn't present. Sadly your epilepsy may be the cause?

Thanks getting missed gb thread on shape of brain but PD and other disorders (AS) have differences ie the emotions part of brain is different size to NT.

Is their anyone here with BPD whose up bringing wasn't bad....I mean everyone has relationship difficulties somewhere but I mean without horrific or abusive pasts. Also did another family member have a PD also?
It is also same for dc with ADHD first to have finger pointed at them when sometimes their NT peers are worse, it is the 'label' makes society so judgemental....I hate labels but sadly needed to get the therapy needed.

Sorry another question to squash/getting grip and others is Narcissim a part of psychopathy? So if Mrs W dh has NCD traits could this be an element of psychopathy the highest PD?

Springy I would have hoped they get fast tracked to services to monitor/support and hopefully treat. But I think they usually have had to committed a crime to be helped first, not good hey.

Mrs W what is psychiatrist offering dh? You and ds? A label is pointless unless it accesses something.

I am new to all this, I'm not a scientist or a therapist. Mrsw - I take my hat off to anyone who wishes to have a healthy relationship with someone with 'narcissistic tendencies'.

I am at the stage of realisation regarding my DH, he hasn't been officially diagnosed - that will never happen as he doesn't think he has a problem, but his personality seems to fit that of a narcissist.

'Enlightened narcissist' seems to be a contradiction in terms. But as I have said, I am no expert. Is there any treatment? I am genuinely confussed by the posts on this thread.

The thinking now is that N is part of psychopathy.

chipping - people may say there is a treatment, a cure even, but the problem is that Ns just do not think they have a problem, and so will never seek help. The studies that have shown most value have been done in prisons for example, but even then Ns are so manipulative that they just manipulate the professional who is studying them.

They tell lies with no guilt, and if challenged about anything, even the most trivial of things, will lie rather than expose their true selves.

chipping, can you tell us a bit about your DH? It doesn't matter in the end if he is or is not PDed really, if you are not happy you can do something about it. But I found it did help to know what was wrong with my family.

I test my mother now and again just to make sure that I am not imagining it. I'm not!

gettingagrip - how do you test you mum?

DH hates authority, is currently doing legal battles with his employers & several other people. He is the best at everything, he has done everything, he is never wrong, always right which flips to he is always wrong, everyone is always right (if someone disagrees with him) - complete head buggery games. He tells the DCs that he is the best dad in the world & asks them to repeat it back to him. He is competative even against his own DCs.

He thinks he is entitled to sex even when I don't want it. He is superior to everyone. He befriends people who have a 'use', and drops them when no longer needed. No empathy, even to the extent when he has inflicted pain on someone (me) he denies it. He rewrites history.

and so much more ... but, the big difference with the op is that my DH thinks it is everyone else who has the problem, due to their own inadequacies & envy.

chip Robert Hare did a psychopathy checklist/assessment. I don't link as I think you may have to buy it? chip I do wonder if your Dh is actually a liar? could he have such delusional beliefs that he keeps changing the story when truth comes out to coincide with what he wants...so not intentional? Other than that some of those symptoms sound checked.

Thanks getting, I thought this was the case, I won't ask anymore questions:)

My bpd is comorbid ( is that the term ?) with bi polar depression and it did take some time ( and money) to get a bpd diagnosis whereas the depression was recognised much earlier.

The treatment I was offered was quite different, although that may be because we were paying for a while . As a depressive I was pumped with pills which made little difference. Once I had a diagnosis of bpd they stopped the tablets and my treatment was more therapy focused. Now that we have gone back to the nhs my psychiatrist is still insistent that I need no medication unless my depression becomes more of a problem than the bpd .

In the past I was offered ect, although as I was unwell at the time I am not sure if that was for the depression, bpd or both or simply because the tablets were not working.

I do not understand why it took so long to diagnose a bpd in my case as it was very obvious. Although I went through a lot of shame about my diagnosis it was great to finally understand what was happening.

Sea and chip, there are a number of online summaries of Hare's checklist. One is here. Only half of his diagnostic is tick-box; the other half depends on interview by a trained professional so you couldn't actually do it as a quiz - fortunately, I guess!

Point 18 - juvenile delinquency - is an essential diagnostic factor. A sadistic, impartial control freak of the worst kind would not qualify for Hare's diagnosis if s/he'd been a sweet and gentle child. (But would still be a sadistic, impartial control freak!) It doesn't actually matter if the child was ever caught, just that they did bad stuff on purpose.

I'm really chuffed to hear you got a differential diagnosis, NAM, and have appropriate treatment available for whatever is bothering you most at the time. Nice to hear it happens, and works :)

This is another brain dump, after which I'll stop spamming the thread (again.)
I remember, as a young child, pulling the legs off spiders with one of my siblings. To see what happened, you know. An adult came by and asked if we'd thought about how it was for the spider - it must hurt a lot, the spider wouldn't be able to spin & hunt, etc. I stopped doing it, then, forever. My sib listened, then placidly pulled out several legs at a time.

garlic - in answer to your question, DBT was not developed around hearing voices as far as I know. It grew out of a concerted effort from Marsha Linehan to work with the "untreatables", people with severe self-harming behaviour and often multiple suicide attempts. Years later she has now spoken of her own torment and hospitalisation in her teens.

There's a non-technical explanation of it on this NHS page
www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Borderline-personality-disorder/Pages/Treatment.aspx

Latara, if you have had epilesy since childhood, do bear in mind that the medication to treat it has been fairly primitive, and this may have had an effect on your perceptions. Several epilepsy meds double up as MH meds as well, despite there being an enormous difference between the way a brain reacting to a neurological short-circuit and a brain reacting to an unhealthy upbringing.

Lamotrigine is one of the few epilepy meds that in my opinion does not work by 'numbing the brain' for want of a better explanation at this time on a Sunday morning. Having a seizure is a bit like getting an electric shock and you probably lose millions of brain cells in one go - don't underestimate how much this will be affecting your ability to function well.

Latara I think us epileptics need to give ourselves a break. We need to be handled with care and handle ourselves with care. I've never seen it as a disability but as time goes on I realise how much it restricts my abilities. In many ways our partners and family should be our carers, but that rarely seems to happen and we soldier on as though we've just got a toothache!

Sorry to change tack here again OP.

chipping - why don't you start your own thread about your DH? Have you got the 'Why Does he Do That?' book?.

I can't recommend testing your DH like I test my mother, as I am no longer in her power and her reactions have no affect on me whatsoever now, except to make me laugh. But I am mid-fifties and have been through the mill with her.

If your DH is causing you and your DC distress, which it does sound like then you need more constructive advice.

What a brilliant and informative thread.